National Defence Committee on May 19th, 2016

[BGen Pierre Boucher]

As we have seen in the past, reservists are often deployed following natural disasters. There was the ice storm in 1998. Just a month before that, when I was chair of the Council of Honorary Colonels of Canada, during a discussion with the defence staff, I was told that we would barely be able to mobilize 10% of our personnel to help out in the event of a disaster, and yet, when the ice storm happened, 24 hours later, 50% of the reserves personnel were available and were deployed on the ground, even before the regular force members arrived.

It is important to understand that reserve units are scattered all across Canada. My current unit, the Régiment de Maisonneuve, is the only place where the Canadian flag flies in downtown Montreal. There are units scattered all over the countryside, and they often have armouries.

The ice storm crisis is the best example of the contribution made by reservists. Many reservists have also been called upon to help fight fires in western Canada. A well-prepared and well-trained soldier can respond very quickly to a number of requests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Perfect timing, seven minutes on the dot.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I think the testimony we're hearing today is crucial to the defence review, so I want to make sure we have some way to make sure this testimony is formally fed into that defence review with the backing of this committee. Therefore, at an appropriate time, I'm prepared to move a motion that we prepare a report based on the testimony we've heard today, a very short report, and that it be tabled in the House of Commons and also be given to the Minister of National Defence as part of the defence review.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We'll take that under advisement and we'll deal with it during committee business at the end of the session.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Gerretsen.

You have the last seven-minute question.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. I would agree with Mr. Garrison that what you're contributing today is extremely important to the discussion we're currently having. On Monday night we had a four-hour committee of the whole session with the minister, at which time we were able to ask him some questions about the reservists in particular. I can tell you that, given his experience, he's absolutely committed to making sure that reservists play an important role in the defence of Canada.

We've talked a lot about recruiting, and I want to continue to go down this road. Mr. Selkirk, when you came to see me in my office in Kingston, this was one of the things we talked about quite a bit. We talked about some of the reasons being medical or security, but tell us how this is different from what it was maybe 10 years ago. If the wait time is now six to 12 months, what was it 10 or 15 years ago?

[LCol John Selkirk]

I don't know, but certainly in the past, 20 or 15 years ago, reserve units were capable of doing the complete process within the unit.

In Kingston in the PWOR armoury, it could have been done right there. We hear anecdotal stories all the time from old, grey-haired guys like me about someone walking down to the armoury on Tuesday and coming back on Thursday to be sworn in. That actually was happening.

I'm not saying that should be possible in this day and age. I think there are probably some things that need to happen that would take a little bit longer, but I would say that it is not unreasonable, when you have reasonable people in those reserve units doing all those steps that need to be done, that it could be done within two or three weeks. I think that's perfectly possible.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Are you aware of any particular incident or, for lack of a better expression, any cumbersome bureaucracy that has led to the wait times being so much longer? Did something happen? Did a few incidents occur? Did the wrong people get through the door, so to speak?

[LCol John Selkirk]

They did not, to my knowledge, Mr. Gerretsen. I don't know of any instances, although undoubtedly a few bad things have happened, but you have to accept some risk when you're talking about an organization as large as this. You can do a lot of things to mitigate that risk. For example, if we can just get those kids in the door and start getting some money into their hands, they don't necessarily have to have a rifle in their hands for the first several weeks. There is adult leadership in the units. They're quite capable of making an assessment once the kid is there. If things look problematic, then we can release them very quickly.

However, I'm not aware of any incidents, and in my opinion, the problem started when the Canadian Forces recruiting group was formed and the whole thing was centralized. It's the centralization that really causes the problem.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

If I understand you correctly—I don't want to assume and so I'd rather hear you say it if it's the case—is the proper solution to improving the recruitment system to start to decentralize again and to put it more back into the hands of the individual units?

[LCol John Selkirk]

Absolutely, and concurrent with that, there has to be a recognition that a civilian doctor has passed numerous professional qualifications to get where he is, and he is just as capable of assessing that individual coming in the door as somebody reading a file on them in Camp Borden is. That's an attitude and a cultural thing that needs to change as well.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I know you both had an opportunity to speak to the effectiveness of our reservists. I would agree with the comment—and I'm not sure if it was Mr. Garrison who made it—that the general perception of reservists is that they don't contribute in the same way that full-time members do. Can you give some examples other than at-home emergencies of where they may have been involved that the public might not know about?

[BGen Pierre Boucher]

I will answer that question and then hand things over to John.

Let's not forget that reservists are citizen soldiers. After staying with the same unit for three years, a reservist acquires skills they can carry with them for life. It is beneficial to Canada. We have to take a good look at the long-term impact the reservist will have.

What about the short-term impact? Take the mission in Afghanistan, for example. Some 15% to 20% of the forces in Afghanistan were reservists, as is the case in the majority of missions. At least that is the case in Quebec, but also elsewhere in Canada. I must say that I am more familiar with the numbers for reservists from Quebec. Reservists from Quebec did everything that was asked of the reserve force. Without reservists, the regular forces would not have been able to fulfill its mandate.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you. Before I run out of time, there is one more question I have.

We have talked a lot about young kids becoming reservists, and I know that at least in the PWOR in Kingston that's the case, but it's not always the case. Quite often we have police officers, firefighters, or other individuals in the community who work full-time jobs who also join the reserves. I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about the variety of individuals that exists.

[LCol John Selkirk]

Yes, we do have a wide variety, and they bring their civilian skills with them. They don't leave those at the door when they leave the house, and those skills can be very useful.

There are some problems in that area. For example, a qualified mechanic who has passed the provincial mechanics courses and is qualified in, say, the province of Ontario, is not qualified to work on an army truck. You have to go through a long, detailed, and probably a too wide and complicated training in order for you to be able to work on a vehicle. For years we have talked about transference of skills, both from the army to civvy street, which would be useful for veterans getting out, and back the other way. I'm not sure why all this...it doesn't seem to be rocket science, but it plays out that way.

There are also things.... You were giving examples of reservists who have done things that may not be recognized. I would suggest our own minister is a perfect example. His police skills were useful in Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

That sums up the last seven-minute question.

We're going to five-minute questions. We wish we had you here longer, and we may need to have you back, but please look to me for a cue on how much time you have left. Gentlemen, if you're unsure, I'll hold up a white piece of paper, which means you need to sum up, so I can get to the next questioner.

Mr. Rioux, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Luckily, there are two question periods.

Earlier you mentioned the ice storm. I was mayor at the time and I can tell you that your services were appreciated.

So far you have talked only about staffing and recruitment. I want to ask a two-part question and talk to you about budgets.

Over the past 10 years changes were made to the budgets and how they were administered. I want to go back to what you said when you spoke to us in Trois-Rivières about equipment. Could you talk to us about how this is no longer what attracts recruits to the reserves?

[BGen Pierre Boucher]

I must admit that things have improved when it comes to individual equipment. Twenty or 25 years ago, the equipment we had was outdated compared to what our militia, our reservists have now. It is more the training equipment that is lacking. The Bison or Grizzly armoured vehicles were purchased at the time. They were supposed to be for the militia. We were then told that if these vehicles were left with the militia units they might not get maintained properly and the decision was made to centralize them on the bases with the understanding that the militia could uses these vehicles when it wanted. Unfortunately, when we wanted to use them, they were not available.

I believe that individual equipment, which includes clothing, does not cause serious problems. Equipment for collective training is the problem.

As far as budgets are concerned, when I was Commander of the Eastern Militia Area, I got a budget for pay and training, but the bases provided us with everything to do with transportation, and room and board, among other things. I had no control over any of that, but the bases were required to provide us all that. There weren't too many problems. Now, with the new system and limited budgets, each unit is responsible for all its expenses. We had to be given a budget to cover training, housing, food, and so forth. The money that was transferred to us was not the same as what we were getting before.

Class B reservists are those who can be employed full time. At one point we ended up with 10,000 class-B, full-time reservists. It goes without saying that this ate into a big part of the reserve force budget. LGen Leslie helped reduce that number. He determined that 10,000 reservists was too much and reduced the number to 4,000. The fact remains that even with 4,000 reservists, a good part of the reserve force budget is drained.

In sum, we would like to have better control of the budget that the House of Commons gives to the reservists.

John, do you have anything to add?

[LCol John Selkirk]

Certainly, I believe that if a reservist is employed for, say, more than three months on a continuous contract, as about 3,500 are across the Canadian Forces—that's army, navy, air force—when money is appropriated from Parliament, if you as a parliamentarian see a number that is a figure for the reserves, you probably think it's part-time. You're not thinking full-time employees.

It has always been our argument that this distorts the whole potential to look at the reserves as a cost-effective organization. We've always advocated that for reservists who are on full-time duty over three months in time, that money should come out of the full-time pay budget, not out of the part-time pay budget.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you for the question and answer.

I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Bezan. You will have the last word.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Lieutenant-Colonel Selkirk and Brigadier-General Boucher for being with us today. We appreciate the hard work you're doing advocating on behalf of our reserve force.

I agree with everything you're saying about recruitment. That is the area we have to put more emphasis on, and we need to streamline the process to empower the local units to actually get out there and recruit their own people.

I want to come down to three quick things that I think are all linked together from an employability standpoint.

You mentioned making sure there's summer employment, especially for young reservists, and sometimes training our cadets. What other opportunities would you pursue there?

The Auditor General in his report also mentioned that DND had pretty much raided the budget that was set aside for reserves. Then, of course, we have this problem with lack of equipment and lack of training opportunities.

There is a third thing that you could, if possible, tie in as well. My understanding is that our reserve force doesn't have contracts like we have in the regular force or like the reserves in the United States have. They have contracts that they are obliged to uphold. I was wondering if that is something we should be talking about as well.

[LCol John Selkirk]

I'll take that last part.

No, we don't have contracts. I don't know how efficient that would be. If an individual on joining the army reserve were told the expectation that we have for the next 12 months and what we as an organization commit to, but we want the individual to commit to being there when we're going to do these things, I think a deal, if you wish, like that would be helpful. I don't honestly know. Once you get into a contract, the next thing you know, you're going to have lawyers and goodness knows what.

We need an atmosphere of when we bring these young Canadians in, we have to provide them with something, but they have an obligation to provide something back. I'd rather see that sort of an arrangement, personally.

I've already forgotten your first two questions.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

One was the type of summer employment opportunities we should be really focusing on.

[BGen Pierre Boucher]

Summer jobs for reservists is very important. If we offer a three-week course to a reservist and he doesn't have a job to come back to, he will probably not take the course. We have to offer him a job for the whole summer. You might say it is a matter of budget, and I completely agree. It is about setting the priorities that will dictate our direction.

Among other things, to keep our young people in the reserve force, we must give them the opportunity to meet challenges. In the past, we had operational tasks. The young soldier who does basic training will not ask for more during the first summer. However, if during the second summer we ask him to do his basic training over again, he will grow weary of it. We could offer to have him do operational tasks. That program was suspended for a time, but we have started to assign operational tasks again.

It is important to be able to offer summer employment, as least for as long as the person is a student.

There is also the issue of the qualification of reservists. The reserve force suffered tremendously from Canada's mission in Afghanistan for the simple reason that all the resources were being used to support the effort in that country, which we were all in favour of. However, in the meantime, the courses were not being offered, not the qualification courses or the courses for non-commissioned officers and for officers. We are currently paying the price for that, in that we are lacking leadership within the different units. We have to take into account the reality of the militia member.

Also, courses are offered and given to the entire force. For example, it is decided that a course will be offered to members of the regular force on a certain date in April, and reservists are invited to attend. The member of the regular force will be available, while the militia member will have to make arrangements with his employer. If the course is cancelled after two weeks' notice, the militia member is left high and dry. He will not be working for two weeks and his employer might not be happy that he took two weeks' vacation in order to take a course that ended up not going through.

The system has to be directed to the militia and based on what suits the militia and not based on the system in place for the regular force.