National Defence Committee on April 4th, 2019

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How did you so-called “target” minorities? Did you have photographs or recruiting commercials that highlighted certain people? In what way did you depict people?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

There were images of people, of Sikhs in turbans. There were images of people with prayer mats—obviously these were Islamic people—and the language was very much about minority groups within the U.K. There was no hiding from what the issue was that they were addressing.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The British army, though, had troops in India. I believe they were Sikhs and they wore their full regalia. If somebody were to transfer from one of those types of units from India to the U.K., would a person who was either transferring or embedding have been allowed to use the uniform they wore in India?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Our regulations for wearing turbans have been in existence for many years. There is no prohibition of people wearing turbans in the armed forces. The fact remains, however, that the numbers of Sikhs within our armed forces are very small.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

With respect to the types of activities, do you go into schools? Do you go into home shows or trade shows and have a booth where people can pick up information? What really do you do in terms of outreach?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

We do all of the above. Again, my information might be a little dated. We had a controversy in the United Kingdom a few years ago whereby some educational districts, educational authorities, did not like the armed forces coming into schools to recruit. They felt it was inappropriate that the armed forces should be given precedence in terms of career guidance to people. In particular, they stated that some of that recruitment was being done in more disadvantaged areas of the country where career opportunities for some of the students might not be as great as in other areas, and therefore, they might be more susceptible to the armed forces.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

You don't have career days where you have an exhibition of all different types of trades and the school kids are bused there to see what's available. Do you have cadets?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

We do have cadets. Yes, we have ACF and CCF, which are two different types of cadet forces. They are very much there to encourage people to understand the reasons behind having an armed force and to give the cadets some of the benefits of discipline, bearing and dress, but they're categorically not there as recruiting tools.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'm going to go more towards women now.

What is the process for someone who has had a sexual assault? What would be the reporting process and how would that be taken care of? Would it be through your military police, your chain of command and/or the civil courts?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

If it is a disciplinary case, then the military police will be involved automatically, unless it involves somebody in the military police. Then we would look at a mechanism for involving another police force to investigate that case.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The military police investigate and if there are charges laid, does it go through a court martial process or a trial? What are the limits? What are the criteria to go through one versus another?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Whether it has the jurisdiction in a case will depend on who is involved at the time. If there is a civilian involved in the case, then it is up to the civilian system to decide whether it's going to be a civil disciplinary and follow-up or whether it is a military police lead.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What is the retention rate for military personnel who have reported sexual assaults versus those who have never reported one?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I would have to find that out. I'm afraid I don't have that information.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

All right.

Going back to recruiting, you had mentioned what happened in the past with targeting minorities. In encouraging more women to join the military, other than what has been done in terms of allowing them to be in combat roles and special forces—something Canada has done for ages—what sort of techniques are being used to highlight opportunities for women in your armed forces?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm sorry, Brigadier, I'm going to have to hold it there and yield the floor to our next questioner, MP Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Hello, and thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate your presentation.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mentioned mentorship.

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Yes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, good. We heard from other witnesses that they believe mentorship is really important, but something that isn't actually done. It's talked about, but it's not actually practised within our military.

I'm wondering if you could tell us a little about what that program looks like. How are you engaging it to work with more diverse populations?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I'm afraid that is a level of detail I don't have with me. I will have to find out.

I have been mentored in the past, but that has been more to do with how to act in boards and committees, and make progress on issues, as opposed to being specifically about diversity. I suspect it would be done by external consultants who are specialists in the area, who bring industry-type best practice and try to inculcate it within the armed forces.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay.

You also mentioned the importance of inclusion as well as diversity—not just diversity. Can you explain how you see those two things working together? If we focus only on diversity, what are we missing out on with the process of inclusion?

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

Certainly. I think it's best to emphasize within the strategy, where it says that diversity means the ways in which we differ, including but not limited to race, ethnicity, religion, the different groupings, life experiences and skills and the ways we do things. Diversity is everything that makes us slightly different. Inclusion consists of the actions of embracing these differences. Inclusion is about valuing and harnessing people's unique backgrounds, talents, perspectives and insights for the benefit of the individuals in the organization.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, thank you.

It was mentioned earlier that we did have a witness who talked about the importance of exit interviews, and that they weren't being done well enough. You've talked about that as a part of the practice. Whether or not people choose to take that is up to them. I'm just wondering if the process includes, or will include, collecting data specifically around inclusion and diversity, and the challenges that might be heard in those exit interviews, and using that to review internal processes to ensure that embracing diversity and creating an inclusive environment is happening within the U.K. military.

[Brig Nicholas Orr]

I know the questions are asked, but again, it's the difficulty of getting people to answer those questions truthfully and honestly, at a time in their lives and their careers when there are probably quite a few other pressures on them, such as where they're going to live in the future and what job they're going to do. How much attention they give that exit questionnaire, I think, is questionable. Without making it compulsory.... Getting honesty in those responses is something we're trying to achieve.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Now that you've implemented this new strategy as of February, is that something you're looking at more, or are you just continuing the way it's always been done?