National Defence Committee on Oct. 27th, 2016

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In connection with the concept of intervention, I have a question about submarines.

The offshore patrol ships that are being built will ensure a presence in Arctic waters. We might need to intervene more boldly. Should we not prioritize the purchase of better submarines and additional submarines with the capacity to intervene in such cases? My submarine trip helped me truly understand what an important weapon it is. The kind of weapon to which I am referring is more of a combat weapon.

In your opinion, should we purchase submarines?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

We have an extraordinary submarine capability.

As I indicated when I was here last, very few Canadians appreciate the fact that some of the western world's most advanced technologies are in our submarines. That's a tremendous capability they provide to that system of systems. That's why when NATO looks to conduct operations, it's extraordinarily happy to have our submarines participate in that activity.

Undersea warfare, or anti-submarine warfare, to go back to team sport, is very much a team sport. When we look at what NATO is doing across the board in terms of understanding that very complex and dynamic environment, we see that it's all about the team.

Our submarines provide us an opportunity to access not only the decision-making table but the exceptionally classified aspects of anti-submarine warfare. As I indicated when I was here last, our submariners are doing great work on behalf of Canada and Canadians every day, but unfortunately, because of the classification of what they're doing, much like our special forces, there's not a lot we can share in an unclassified environment.

As we continue to work as a member of that team and as our submarines continue to do the great work they've been doing, when you look at how often Windsor was at sea last year, you see that we're delivering on our requirement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Rioux is next.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Hello. Thank you for being here.

You are starting to be a regular here. This week, you were here as part of Navy Day.

Earlier, my colleague Ms. Romanado spoke about recruitment. She opened the door with respect to the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean. Could this attract more French Canadians and better trained people who will accordingly remain with the Royal Canadian Navy longer?

[CPO 1 Michel Vigneault, Chief Petty Officer, 1st Class, Royal Canadian Navy, Department of National Defence]

Thank you for your question.

With respect to recruitment, the Royal Military College helps Quebec recruits tremendously. I got my basic training at Saint-Jean several years ago. With respect to retention, I am looking back and asking myself why I decided to stay in the navy. The incentives were the opportunities to train at the highest levels, work with the best equipment, and travel the world. I think these reasons are still valid for the young women and men now joining the navy. We will give them opportunities for training and education at the highest levels—opportunities that are the envy of many of our allies—and to work in different places throughout the world, with the best equipment possible.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

More specifically, might the restoration of French-language university education at the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean be an asset in attracting candidates?

[CPO 1 Michel Vigneault]

Yes.

For young Quebecers who are more comfortable doing their university studies in French, it's definitely an asset. As part of that education, they will also have the opportunity to learn English. I think it's already part of the course of study. It's certainly an advantage.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

It's important to understand and appreciate that in the Royal Canadian Navy, one of our strengths is diversity. In terms of where we need to go to be more successful, about a month and a half ago I was taking a look at the senior staff of the Royal Canadian Navy. I looked out into the audience and I said, “This is not the reflection of Canada. We are not a reflection of Canada. We need to be a reflection of Canada.”

Whether it's visible minorities, whether it's women, whether it's the LGBTQ community, we have fully embraced the fact that if we're not a more diverse organization going forward, it will actually be a weakness.

Right now we're trying to ensure we get the message out that we embrace diversity. It wasn't by accident that I was in the Toronto Pride parade with the chief in uniform with the rest of the leadership in terms of reinforcing that commitment.

You can put things on paper, as you've just articulated, but it's not until you actually do something that people can physically see that people actually believe that you're committed to that idea, so at every turn right now, whether it's the francophone community, whether it's visible minority communities across the land, we are enforcing our commitment to that diversity. It makes us stronger, it makes us better, and we're going to try to do a much better job in terms of enabling it.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

It's good news that you acknowledge that 25% of Canada's population are French Canadians and that they have equal opportunities in the navy.

We spoke about supply vessels. Canada has begun leasing such ships. At the Davie shipyard, a container ship is being converted into a supply ship.

How was the decision to lease ships arrived at? It seems to me that we should have bought new ones.

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

I think the interim AOR, first and foremost, is a recognition of the navy and the government embracing innovation. Going through the entire process of procuring a ship takes time, and it's problematic, because as I indicated in my opening comments, right now we're currently undertaking the largest recapitalization of the Royal Canadian Navy in its peacetime history. To actually free up the people to look after a procurement like that.... They just don't exist right now, because everyone's all hands on deck trying to deliver the Queenston class, the Arctic offshore patrol ship, and the Canadian surface combatant.

When you take a look at the demands on PSPC, ISED, the navy, Pat Finn and his team, it is quite literally all hands on deck. An opportunity to leverage a service, as opposed to an acquisition, was innovative, and it recognizes that everyone across the board will be really busy on the acquisition side going forward.

Casper, do you have anything to add?

[Cmdre C.P. Donovan]

The only thing I would add is that it also recognizes that having that element of support for navy ships while they are under way is incredibly important. If you want to have the capability that the navy can provide, especially if you need to send it somewhere around the world, then the ability to get fuel and other supplies from a ship is incredibly important.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Is the timeline—

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Is the timeline being complied with—

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Jean, I am going to have to give the floor to Mr. Bezan.

Mr. Bezan, you have the floor.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Chief, Admiral, and Commodore for being with us today. It is important that we are having this discussion at this high level, especially today when we are announcing the request for proposals on our new surface combatants.

I want to go back to what Pierre was taking about on threats, because I think this is critical in how we are evolving in the navy. When we look at the proliferation of submarines and icebreakers by both Russia and China, when we look at the geopolitics that China has been playing in the South China Sea and whether they're going to respect the UN's Convention on the Law of the Sea and whether that may also transpire in the Arctic itself, and when we look at Russia's very aggressive stance that they've been showing in the North Atlantic, in the Baltics, and in the Black Sea, there's just so much to be concerned about.

The Royal Canadian Navy has done a fabulous job of being a protection force, a security force, making sure that our trade routes remain open and working alongside our coalition partners.

Are we ready to deal with this new evolving threat with the proliferation of the subs and icebreakers? Are we ready to deal with Russia's aggressive stance in the Arctic as they increase their naval presence, their air force presence? Definitely we see them threatening Canadian airspace with their fighter jets and Bear bombers.

Are we able to engage and protect our sovereignty in the Arctic, first and foremost, and also deal with the cybersecurity and the electronic warfare that Russia has engaged in, as we witnessed in the Baltic and in the Black Sea? They've done flyovers of NATO ships when we were in manoeuvres in those waters.

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

That's a fantastic question.

There are a couple of things. I'll go back to “threat” in terms of capability and intent. If a nation has intent but no capability, then you can deal with it. If a nation has significant capability and potentially no intent, how do you continue to monitor that over the fullness of time?

In terms of our preparation and our readiness, as I indicated in my opening remarks, the Halifax class modernization, which remains on budget and on time—very few people hear about it, probably because it is on budget and on time—has provided us with exceptional capability for the navy. As Commodore Donovan was indicating, when we put out the request for proposal, we did so looking ahead at those future threats, recognizing that with the timelines we're dealing with, we'll be delivering cutting-edge technology and delivering on our requirements to go forward.

Going back to understanding and how we can deal with potential threats moving forward, it wasn't by accident this last summer that Admiral Newton led Cutlass Fury, which was basically NATO participation—although it wasn't sanctioned by NATO—in terms of understanding the challenges and demands of theatre anti-submarine warfare and making sure there was, once again.... It's back to making sure that the linkages and the interoperability between the air forces, the surface forces, and the submarine forces are understood by all.

As we look into the other aspects of the world, we see HMCS Vancouver currently deployed in the Indo-Asia-Pacific region. In the Atlantic, we have the NATO alliance, which we know well, but those procedures that we know intimately well don't currently exist in the Pacific. As the minister has indicated, we need to be more persistent in the Indo-Asia-Pacific. The chief has given a little more clarification in terms of what we'll do there, because we need to establish those relationships, those partnerships, and those friendships that will be crucial to operating in areas of the world where we may conceivably be deployed.

You'll see us developing that trust over the next two to three years. As you have heard many officers say, in times of crisis or conflict you can always surge forces, but you can't always surge trust. Right now, the trust that's required in terms of enabling and sustaining those forces will be essential, as we look to where we may be deployed as first responders in the future.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I haven't had a chance to look at request for proposals that went out today, but I'm looking forward to your comments. There were rumblings before the RFPs came out from some of the bidders. There were concerns about whether there was going to be a requirement for Canadian content, especially in the technology and the arms systems that are in place in the system. There were concerns as well that it requires tons of paperwork to answer all the questions that have been raised by the government, and that it's going to require truckloads to deliver all the papers to DND and public works, who want to know everything, including what types of fasteners and tools are going to be required to build the ships.

We heard at committee as well that some of the things naval experts are watching for is whether it is going to be a modular type of environment on these vessels and how quickly we can upgrade and switch out capabilities.

I'll just ask you, Admiral, what you're looking for and whether you have some of those similar concerns. Are you happy with how the request for proposal is being rolled out?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

As I indicated in my opening comments, I had the opportunity to visit a number of industries that will likely bid on this request for proposal. I was there to talk about what it is we're responsible for, which is the requirement. We have worked, as I indicated, at great length to ensure that a requirement is defensible. What we've said is that this is a performance that we require from our platform, so we're back to the threat. We have what we would consider a good understanding of the threat today, and we're extrapolating to what the threat could be tomorrow.

We're taking a look at what the performance requirements of that ship will need to be in order to ensure it is survivable. The test that our requirements must go through is a survivability lens to ensure that when we send our young men and women into harm's way, they have the tools at their disposal to be successful.

As I indicated, the characterization of our requirement was demanding but achievable. We're completely agnostic about the platform, and we repeatedly emphasized that at every stage to reinforce that if it meets the navy's requirements, then we'll be comfortable with the ship that is ultimately selected at the end of this process.

If you're asking me if I'm comfortable that we will deliver the right ship, then I will say I'm comfortable that we have the processes in place to select a ship that meets our requirements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Robillard, you wanted to give some of your time to another member.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Jean, do you want to finish up with your thought?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

The floor is yours.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

That's just a mini-question; it's not my main one.

Is the timeline for the conversion of the container ship into a supply ship being complied with at the Davie shipyard?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

Is that for the overall percentage in dollar value?