Evidence of meeting #24 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was terms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
VAdm Ron Lloyd
Sorry. Could you just rephrase your question one more time?
12:15 p.m.
VAdm Ron Lloyd
As of yesterday, I was informed that we are ahead of the timeline anticipated for delivery of the Asterix.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Rioux Liberal Saint-Jean, QC
Okay. Thank you.
You know that the mandate of the Department of National Defence is being changed to place more emphasis on peacekeeping and humanitarian operations.
In your “Leadmark 2050” policy, you talk about the purchase of peace support ships that would give the fleet greater capacity and flexibility for ground operations. If I understand correctly, the ship could potentially be convertible.
Is this still one of your plans? Do you think it would be useful?
12:20 p.m.
Cmdre C.P. Donovan
That's a good question. Presently, there is no project or plan for such a vessel, because it depends on the direction the government wishes to take. If the government engages on a course that includes anticipated missions, we will then conclude that we require the capacities of a ship of that type.
We will work as part of the Department of National Defence to determine defence needs, not just for the navy, but for all forces. We must prepare options so the government can make a decision. For the moment, this kind of vessel is not at the planning stage.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Rioux Liberal Saint-Jean, QC
Submarines were discussed at length. One witness told us last week that we are short of submarines, and he compared us to Australia. Specifically, we have only four submarines, even though we have three coastal zones to monitor and protect.
Do you think we should have more submarines.
Several studies appear to show that we are underequipped in terms of submarines, and that we should have at least two more, especially considering the uptick in operations in the Pacific, to which you referred earlier.
12:20 p.m.
Cmdre C.P. Donovan
The decision regarding submarines is not mathematical alone. As the admiral often says, it's a team sport. Canada is so vast, and its coastlines so long, that we could never have enough submarines to assign them everywhere. Teamwork consists of monitoring, communications, command and control. The important thing is to do a good job identifying the places where threats can emerge. When such a place is identified, you have to determine whether you want to use a submarine, ships or aircraft, in the case of defence, or, other systems located in space. You also have to determine whether the Coast Guard, the RCMP or other organizations have responsibility in the situation.
The location of submarines is very difficult to detect. Even if they're just outside a harbour, and are not in the immediate vicinity of the threat, the threat is unaware of that fact. The submarine sends out a signal that encourages the threat to think twice or three times before doing anything hostile, because it cannot identify the submarine's location.
It's a set of systems, and that's how submarines are used.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Mr. Rioux, that's your time. Thanks very much.
Ms. Blaney, you have the floor.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you.
I'm going to go back to maintenance.
I'm just curious. What was the thought process around making sure that we aren't too dependent on private contractors?
12:20 p.m.
VAdm Ron Lloyd
The thought process...?
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
How are we going to ensure that we don't become too dependent on private contractors?
12:20 p.m.
VAdm Ron Lloyd
We will consistently monitor it. As I indicated previously, we've seen other navies in the world increase their dependencies on industry and we've seen how that has worked, or not. I think the information we've seen thus far is that you need to ensure you fully understand the risks that accrue as a result of having full dependencies on industry. I think what you are seeing there is a recognition of the fact that we need to carefully weigh the pros and cons. As we go forward, we will be consistently monitoring and ensuring that the risks are able to be mitigated.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you.
The other thing I'm interested in, moving beyond maintenance, is that it looks like we are going to be building only two supply ships. I have a relative who actually works on the supply ship on the west coast. We used to have three. The reason was to have one for each side of the country, and then the third to fill in when one of those wasn't working.
If we have only two, how are we going to deal with that?
12:25 p.m.
VAdm Ron Lloyd
The requirement is for three. Right now, the project is to deliver two, with an option for three. In terms of how we will mitigate the situation, we will continue to develop strategies, as we have, recognizing that we've had only two for quite some time now.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
The amount of creativity that goes into your work is greatly appreciated.
You were talking about diversity earlier. The last thing I'm really interested in is knowing your specific strategy around indigenous recruitment.
My family has helped you out. You have multiple folks in different levels of military from my family who are indigenous, but I'm curious about what the strategy is to attract them and keep them in.
12:25 p.m.
Chief Petty Officer, 1st Class, Royal Canadian Navy, Department of National Defence
We have existing programs right now on both coasts, in Halifax and in Esquimalt, that run concurrently in the summertime. It usually starts in late spring. It's called the Raven program, and its main goal is to attract aboriginal recruits in the hope of keeping them in the long term.
From all accounts, it has been successful over the last few years. There's more work, obviously, and every year is more focused to get more numbers, but we're working in the right direction.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
How have you seen that impact the actual increase of indigenous people joining the navy?
12:25 p.m.
Chief Petty Officer, 1st Class, Royal Canadian Navy, Department of National Defence
I would have to go anecdotally from the last time I was at sea, which was about four years ago, when I was coxswain of HMCS Montréal. We had a good number of aboriginal sailors on board my ship. We were fortunate enough to do a Great Lakes deployment, stopping in Toronto, Montreal, and Quebec City. I think that in itself helped when our sailors went ashore and interacted with Canadians.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you.
I have one last thing, and it just occurred to me to go back to maintenance one more time. In maintenance, we know that contractors have an investment in making money. That's part of their goal.
I'm curious. How are you going to make sure they are not keeping those vessels dockside and are getting it done quickly to get out to sea?
12:25 p.m.
VAdm Ron Lloyd
Industry can bring scales of economy to bear. There are strengths in terms of what industry can provide in terms of the maintenance and repair of our ships. Once again, as I indicated, we will be understanding those risks, those challenges, in going forward, and then we will be making sure the solutions we implement take those risks into consideration.
I think you will see that in some respects industry will be motivated to deliver a win-win. For our MCDVs, maritime coastal defence vessels, all their maintenance right now is done by civilian industry, as an example. I'm thinking about a time when we haven't been able to meet schedule because of requirements.
That risk exists, I guess, but provided you have solutions in place to mitigate that.... In a warship, you need to make sure that in those combat systems and the like, you have that capability and capacity. There are other systems as well. Some of the secure systems you can think of need to be capable of being maintained by our maintenance facilities because otherwise, from our perspective, it would be unacceptable risk right now.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Thank you.
That concludes the formal questioning. We have some time left, so I was going to start off with the Conservatives.
Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for five minutes.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In your opening remarks, you mentioned that the submarine HMCS Windsor recently took part in an exercise in the Norwegian Sea. Upon its return from the exercise, NATO asked the submarine to return to the North Atlantic for an actual intervention.
Over the last two years, on how many occasions have our submarines or our vessels had to intervene in Canada's north to respond to threats by submarines or other foreign vessels that were in or close to our territorial waters?
12:30 p.m.
VAdm Ron Lloyd
As we discussed previously with respect to security and the classification of those types of questions, we can take that on notice and get you the information.