National Defence Committee on Oct. 27th, 2016

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'd like to receive that information.

I have a second question.

I noticed in your document entitled “Leadmark 2050” that the constabulary role of the Royal Canadian Navy will be intensifying, and that you collaborate closely with the Canadian Coast Guard. I believe the Coast Guard's vessels also need revitalization.

Do you feel that the Canadian Coast Guard's vessels are sufficiently adapted to joint operations with Royal Canadian Navy ships?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

The Coast Guard and the RCN have been working very closely together over the last several years on interoperability.

Early next month, we're having Canadian Coast Guard and Royal Canadian Navy staff talks, just to make sure that we're actually enabling each other. Two weeks ago, there was a conference that the Naval Association of Canada put on. There was a question about the navy and what we were doing up there. The Coast Guard came back and said that we need to be two sides of a coin when we operate together in the Arctic. We're working very diligently with Commissioner Thomas and her team to ensure that those capabilities of safety and security are addressed.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's excellent.

Let's talk about procurement strategy. The problem with naval equipment or aircraft is that substantial time elapses between the decision and the delivery. Moreover, changes of government often cause problems, because the new government cancels the contract, or chooses another type of vessel.

For example, if the government wants to take part in peacekeeping operations, it will order a boat for that. But a new government might arrive and say that it doesn't want one anymore, and that it won't work.

In your opinion as a member of the military, are there other Commonwealth or NATO countries where the navy operates ideally? If I'm not mistaken, Australia has procurement systems that ensure politics don't enter the equation. Do you have colleagues who are satisfied with the way their systems work?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

I was at the International Sea Power Symposium about three weeks ago in Newport, Rhode Island, where the Chief of Naval Operations for the United States has a number of chiefs of navy and chiefs of coast guard convene to discuss the future of the maritime environment and some of the emerging trends that we collectively need to be aware of. I would suggest that it's very difficult to compare and contrast any model based on the legislation of other countries. You might have a model in one country that works really well, but if you try to export it to another country, because of the different legislation, laws of competition, and this, that, or the next thing, it's completely unworkable.

I don't think it's useful trying to compare and contrast models unless you actually have the time to get down to crossing the t's and dotting the i's and realize that the devil's always in the details. Invariably, when you take a look at a solution that appears to meet your requirements and should be straightforward to implement, my experience in headquarters has been that every time you scratch that thin veneer of “easy”, it becomes complex and hard in a hurry.

That's why I would suggest that it would be very difficult, and actually unfair, to look at another nation's model and ask why we're not doing that because it would work better for us in Canada. We never have those sophisticated conversations about whether or not it truly is implementable in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I wrote down something you said that I thought was quite telling, and I really appreciated it. You said earlier that we had the furthest to go, but we were the first on station. I think that speaks to the military's flexibility in its time to respond. We bring a kinetic capability to the fight when we show up.

With regard to the RCAF, it's often underappreciated how much tactical leadership we bring to the fight. Everyone thinks we're small and we go out and do a small percentage of missions, but we lead a lot of missions. Does the RCN enjoy that type of latitude when you're part of a coalition? Are you called upon to take leadership roles tactically?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

Yes. It's a phenomenal question. We often are. We do lead internationally.

I've had the opportunity to be the deputy commander of RIMPAC, the world's largest maritime exercise. I've had the opportunity to be the maritime component commander for RIMPAC.

We were very fortunate to have Rear Admiral Scott Bishop as the deputy commander of the last RIMPAC. My deputy was the maritime component of the previous RIMPAC. Commodore Baines was just leading Exercise Cutlass Fury, the anti-submarine warfare exercise in the Atlantic. The year before, he was the leader of about 12 ships as part of Joint Warrior, one of the largest NATO maritime exercises in probably about the last 20 years.

There was the carrier strike group that was participating as part of the Rim of the Pacific exercise. Its anti-submarine warfare and surface warfare commander was Captain Jason Boyd.

You can't reinforce that point enough, that our ships have tremendous leaders, both operationally and tactically.

When I was speaking to Vice-Admiral Clive Johnstone in NATO, when when I was visiting him last week, he indicated that he's really appreciative of the ships we've deployed under his command. I think the term he used was that our commanding officers are “thoughtful” in terms of being able to deliver effects across a broad spectrum.

The final point I would add, in terms of that ability to lead and be interoperable, is that in my experience, whenever there's a frigate deployed within a coalition, if there's a hard job to do, it's typically given to the Canadian frigate.

The level of integration is tremendous, and one of the biggest compliments in a sort of reverse way is when, in a message, you'll see your ship mentioned as “USS” Charlottetown, which reinforces the fact that you've now been integrated or assimilated into that carrier strike group.

As I said in my change-of-command speech, if there's one thing I am absolutely, unequivocally sure of, it's the quality of our sailors. The foundation upon which the RCN is built is our sailors, and I refer to them as bedrock. If our sailors are not the best in the world, then they are amongst the best in the world. I have every confidence that any mission given to your navy, once given to the sailors, will be executed to the highest standards.

As I say to the leadership, “Get out of the road. They'll put that mission on their shoulders, and they'll get 'er done.” We just need to turn to making sure that we can then enable and sustain that commitment, and that's where we'll do the heavy lifting going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you for that.

Mr. McKay, did you have a question?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Retired Admiral Robertson came here a week or two ago. I was very impressed by his testimony. He basically described a long, slow, gentle decline of the navy's capabilities, and that after not such a long time, just falling off the cliff if something isn't done.

I don't know whether you read Gwynne Dyer at all. What I like about his writing is that it's to the point. One of his core points is that the next war will be short and sharp, and that whatever you have, that's it. You're not going to build anything new. That's whether it's jets or ships or whatever it is.

I'm looking at the Library of Parliament's “Royal Canadian Navy Fleet Strength”. It comes up with 12 frigates. We have 12 operable frigates at this point, once HMCS Toronto leaves Halifax.

In terms of Iroquois class destroyers, it says there's one, but I thought that had been retired.

Do we still have a destroyer?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

Yes. She's not deployable. She's still able to be used for training activities. She'll be paid off at the beginning of next year.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

So basically, if we have a conflict, we have no destroyers.

In terms of the Kingston class maritime coastal vessels, the Library of Parliament says we have 12. That's on both sides, the Atlantic and the Pacific. Are they all operable, or are there some in maintenance?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

At any given time, we have have 10 of them that are available for service, and one per coast will be in maintenance.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

So if a conflict started, we'd have 10 to throw into it rather than 12.

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

The maritime coastal defence vessels are basically constabulary, so in terms of combat capability, there wouldn't be any combat capability in those vessels.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

They're certainly not warships, then, as such.

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

They're warships in the sense that they're armed. They're doing extraordinary work in terms of the war on drugs in the Caribbean as part of the Joint Interagency Task Force South, in terms of sovereignty, and in working with other government departments. They're playing an invaluable role in terms of the constabulary aspects of the Royal Canadian Navy's mandate.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

And—

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to have to give the floor to somebody else.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I've hardly even worked my way through the fleet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We split time.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor, if you have a question.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm good. He can ask a question, if he would like.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Do you want to continue?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm so nice to you. Don't forget.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

In terms of the deployable subs, where are we at? Are we at two?

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

HMCS Windsor on the east coast has just gone in for a battery change. HMCS Chicoutimi will be over this weld issue that we have, hopefully by the end of the year, and deployable next year. Once HMCS Chicoutimi is deployable, we'll turn our attention to HMCS Victoria in terms of addressing the weld issues that she currently has. Two will be deployable next year.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Having two deployable is a pretty thin fleet, even in spite of today's announcement. Today's announcement means it's still five years or more in terms of ever seeing a ship that's actually floating and deployable.

For the next five years, really, we are in a fairly vulnerable status. We're going to possibly get a supply ship online by this time next year, hopefully, and who knows when the other two will come onside.

The Arctic offshore patrol vessels are just that, patrol vessels rather than war-fighting vessels, so at any given time, we have two subs and 12 frigates.