Evidence of meeting #28 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rear-Admiral  Retired) Patrick Finn (Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence
Lisa Campbell  Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

We are continuing our study on the Royal Canadian Navy and naval readiness as it relates to the defence of North America.

We have Patrick Finn, assistant deputy minister of materiel, and Lisa Campbell, assistant deputy minister, marine and defence procurement.

You have been here before. Thank you for coming.

I have to let you know that we'll probably be hearing a bell ring in 15 minutes or so. This might be a disruptive session, but we're going to do the best we can with the time we have available.

I will give the floor to Mr. Finn for his opening remarks.

11 a.m.

Rear-Admiral Retired) Patrick Finn (Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If you think it's only going to be 15 minutes, I'm happy to pass out my remarks and move straight to questions if you would prefer, sir.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Let's start with your opening remarks and see how we go.

11 a.m.

RAdm Patrick Finn

Mr. Chair, distinguished members of the committee, I would like to thank you for the invitation to appear before you to answer questions relating to your study of the Royal Canadian Navy.

As Assistant Deputy Minister, Material, for the Department of National Defence, I am responsible for the acquisition and life cycle support of all military equipment. This includes all ships, submarines, minor war vessels, auxiliaries, weapon systems and platform systems that are operated by the Royal Canadian Navy. I ensure that all naval assets are properly procured, supported through life, materially certified and technically ready for the various operations they may be assigned in support of government priorities.

Acquiring the new naval fleet and sustaining the existing one are very complex activities. At DND this involves an annual budget of approximately $1.5 billion, almost 1,000 people, and over 4,000 separate contracts under management with my colleagues at Public Services and Procurement Canada. By far, the majority of these contracts deliver as expected on an ongoing basis. A few of these contracts are, however, particularly notable for their importance in defining our future naval capabilities and materiel readiness for years to come and, of course, for their complexity.

Currently, the Royal Canadian Navy is in the midst of its most intensive and comprehensive period of recapitalization in its peacetime history, touching upon all elements of the fleet. The largest components of this recapitalization effort include:

First, the Halifax-class modernization, which delivers modernized and sophisticated systems, will ensure that the Halifax-class frigates continue to meet all operational requirements of the Royal Canadian Navy until they are replaced by the Canadian surface combatants. The modernized Halifax-class frigates have achieved noteworthy operating results, and the 12th and final mid-life refit is nearing completion. The program remains on schedule and on budget.

Second, the Arctic offshore patrol ships will conduct armed seaborne surveillance in Canada's waters, including in the Arctic. They will enhance the government's ability to assert Canadian sovereignty and provide surveillance and support to other government departments. The construction of the first two ships is well under way, and delivery of the first ship is scheduled for 2018.

Third, the joint support ships will increase the range and endurance of naval task groups, permitting them to remain at sea for significant periods of time without returning to port for replenishment. The construction contract is on track to be awarded in 2018.

Fourth, the interim auxiliary oil replenishment capability will provide at-sea replenishment services to the Royal Canadian Navy in non-threat environments by fall 2017. The initial period of service delivery will be for five years, with options to extend that period by up to five additional one-year terms until the second joint support ship joins the Royal Canadian Navy.

Finally, the Canadian surface combatant will be capable of meeting multiple threats in both open oceans and complex coastal environments, ensuring that Canada continues to monitor and defend its waters, contributes to the collective defence of the nation, and promotes international peace and stability abroad. Twelve companies have been pre-qualified to submit bids under the current procurement process. The build contract is anticipated to be awarded in 2019.

Numerous in-service support contracts further ensure that the Royal Canadian Navy remains relevant and delivers operational excellence. These include a new sonar system for our Victoria-class submarines, naval remote weapon stations for our Halifax-class frigates and joint support ships, and high-speed data connectivity for the Kingston-class vessels.

Considerable efforts are also under way to ensure that we are appropriately prepared to support the new fleets through their entire service life. These new ships will arrive with new technologies and global supply chains involving companies from around the world. We are looking closely at our support methodologies and consulting our allies and industry partners to consider new types of arrangements that provide capable, flexible, and cost-effective services to maintain our fleets.

Examples of some of the larger in-service support procurements that will utilize or already use these approaches include the Arctic offshore patrol ship and joint support ship in-service support contract, the Victoria-class in-service support contract, and the Halifax-class combat systems in-service support contract.

Knowledge management and best practices are also at the heart of our improvement effort within the procurement domain. As an example, when the Halifax-class modernization program entered implementation in 2009, it was considered one of the most complex naval procurements undertaken by the materiel group since the original Canadian patrol frigate program in the early 1990s. Innovation and governance, contracting, and management approaches were used not only to achieve success with the Halifax-class modernization program, but also to prepare the entire materiel management enterprise to meet the challenges that new build, modernization, and in-service support will bring across the entire Canadian Armed Forces.

Finally, we are also evolving the competencies and the organization to ensure that we are ready to maintain these new fleets to recognized standards. We are in contract with a classification society to provide greater insight into the materiel condition of our fleets. Significant efforts have also been dedicated to the development of business intelligence solutions to monitor and report the effectiveness of our maintenance programs. We are instilling the business acumen to work effectively with our industry partners to establish and maintain the types of support contracts that we need to keep our fleets capable, available, and cost-effective.

In closing, we are in an exciting time of navel fleet recapitalization. At the same time, the evolution and innovation of our procurement and support approaches have continued soundly and will ensure we are well positioned to provide the necessary support for all assets for years to come.

We are very proud to be able to work closely with the Royal Canadian Navy in the defence of Canada and the projection of Canadian values abroad.

Thank you for allowing me to provide some opening comments. I'll turn it over to my colleague.

11:05 a.m.

Lisa Campbell Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Good morning, Mr. Chair, and committee members. I appreciate this opportunity to appear before you today as part of the study on the readiness of the Royal Canadian Navy. At Public Services and Procurement Canada, we're working hard to ensure that the Royal Canadian Navy is able to maintain operational readiness and operate as a true blue-water maritime force. We're partners with the Department of National Defence in this endeavour, and both departments view procurement as a key enabler in achieving this important objective.

We're modernizing procurement policies and practices so that they are simpler and less administratively burdensome, deploy modern comptrollership, and include practices that support economic policy goals. The desire for deliberate policy making that leverages procurement is stronger than ever as the public budget is stretched around the world to achieve and support a number of socio-economic objectives.

We're currently working with other departments to develop proposals and approaches that will enable us to further leverage government procurement to bring about even greater social and economic benefits to Canadians. From a defence sector perspective, the use of industrial and technological benefits managed by Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada in close collaboration with my department and the Department of National Defence represents an excellent example of how this can be achieved.

The success of procurement modernization rests in large part on our ability to engage and collaborate to achieve results. A number of elements within our procurement modernization agenda require the active involvement of other departments and industry, and in some cases, they need to be led by them.

Recognizing the importance of these relationships, we've established a senior level team that reports to the deputy minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada and to the secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada. The purpose of this team is to coordinate engagement with all stakeholders involved in government procurement, including suppliers in government departments like ours and the Department of National Defence, as well as to ensure all initiatives are meeting their goals through solid implementation plans with clear timelines and performance measures.

I'll just pause to explain. Our department does about 12% of the government's contracts, representing 80% of the money, but all the rest of the contracts, of higher volume and lower monetary value, are handled across government by departments themselves. In modernizing our practices, it is important that we employ a whole-of-government approach.

To make procurement simpler and less administratively burdensome, much of our emphasis to date has been on how and with whom we do business, and on providing better client services to departments. In particular, we're in the process of acquiring and implementing a new web-based commercial procurement solution to standardize procurement processes. Much of what we do is still paper-based. We can't afford to keep doing business that way.

This solution will allow the Government of Canada to simplify and improve the procurement process, as well as give us better analytics about the federal buy. We hope it will also make it easier for suppliers to do business with the federal government, especially small and medium-sized businesses. As a result of this, clients will have access to streamlined service delivery and a reduced process burden to support easier and faster procurement.

In addition, we're looking at our contracts and related terms and conditions to see how they can be streamlined and simplified where appropriate. At the moment, we have about 800 standard contract terms and conditions. We think we can make do with less than that, so we're looking to our counterparts around the world for examples of best practices that we can import to Canada, and we're already implementing many of those.

We also intend to assess current government contracts and related practices against these other jurisdictions to make sure that we're incentivizing the right kind of business behaviour. Instead of always punishing bad behaviour, we want to incentivize business to find efficiencies that we can share in with them.

Another key element of our procurement modernization agenda involves enhancing our ability to assess supplier performance, in other words, to rate industry on how they're doing continuously throughout the life of a contract. This will ensure that suppliers, including those in the defence sector, are evaluated on their performance, which will be used to help recognize and incent good supplier performance and positively influence the behaviour of suppliers by holding them accountable for their performance throughout the life of a contract.

Although all of the initiatives under procurement modernization will ultimately affect defence procurement as well as all of our other procurement, I'd like to bring to your attention two initiatives that are of particular interest to defence, the first being the sustainment initiative.

We're working with the Department of National Defence, with Innovation, Science, and Economic Development Canada, and with the defence industry to find more efficient ways to maintain the equipment we procure. As you all know, a large portion of the expense is actually in-service support and maintenance. We focus a lot on the acquisitions, but the real money and work comes after that.

This initiative provides the basis for more planning, earlier engagement, and rigorous option analysis up front in the procurement process. It's also more flexible, allowing us to go back to the market when we see that there are innovations we may want to take advantage of. It introduces, in our view, more competition, which we think is healthy for business and gives Canada more choice and flexibility.

The sustainment initiative is based on four principles: performance, value for money, flexibility, and economic benefits. These principles also guide how we are governing defence procurement and the decision-making process for new and existing military maintenance and repair procurements. By working towards generating tailored solutions and using a rigorous analysis tool, we are expecting to strike the right balance among these four principles to achieve better performance and strong business partnerships with industry.

The second initiative I'd like to highlight is flexible bid evaluation, which allows bidders to demonstrate, in two phases, that they meet our mandatory requirements within a specified time after bid closing. In other words, what we're doing is making sure that bids aren't rejected for relatively minor reasons. After a first bid submission, we go back to suppliers and give them an early assessment, giving them a chance to submit more information if needed.

We have found in the time that we've been using this that it maximizes competition. It maximizes the number of compliant bids, as well as innovation, and ultimately helps to achieve overall best value candidates. The positive impact of this process was evidenced by a recent defence procurement where four additional bids were found to be compliant after the process was applied. The winning bid was selected on the basis of best overall value, considering price, technical merit, and socio-economic benefits.

The process not only led to greater competition, it was also faster. I wish these stories would make the news more often, but it does happen, as Mr. Finn and I know, and I'm here to give you an example of it.

The process will also be applied to the procurement of the Canadian surface combatant project, which represents, as Mr. Finn said, the largest defence procurement in Canadian history.

Here in Canada we've seen how sustained funding and support for innovation can be transformative for Canadian companies, particularly those in the defence sector. With government contracts, they are able to contribute to Canada's safety and security, develop skilled workforces, seek export markets, and participate in the global supply chain, as well as reap benefits from their investment in research and development.

All in all, these elements of procurement modernization and sustainment have a positive impact on the Royal Canadian Navy's operational readiness.

We are working to deliver on the enhancement to the national shipbuilding strategy announced by Minister Foote in May 2016 by strengthening governance, building internal capacity, improving cost estimates, monitoring progress and ensuring value for money, and increasing transparency and accountability.

I would also like to highlight that the release of the national shipbuilding strategy's first annual report to Parliament later this year will represent a major achievement for our commitment to increase transparency and accountability. The report will highlight the progress made over the last year, positive impacts on Canadian communities, and expected milestones for the coming years.

Mr. Chair, I would like to invite the committee to visit Irving Shipbuilding's and Seaspan's shipyards' facilities to see first-hand the hard work that is ongoing. If you are interested, my office will be happy to arrange a visit.

I would also like to bring to the committee's attention something which has been in the news recently and perhaps clarify some misconceptions in this regard.

On November 9, 2016, Irving Shipbuilding issued an amendment to the request for proposals for the Canadian surface combatant, to disclose to potential CSC bidders that it had teamed with BAE to bid on the AJISS request for proposals. AJISS is in-service support for the Arctic offshore patrol ships and joint supply ships.

Competition is an integral part of the national shipbuilding strategy. A competition was held in which shipyards competed to be the government's strategic source for large combat vessels and large non-combat vessel programs of work.

The construction of small ships is competed to shipyards other than the two that won the work to build large vessels. In-service support and maintenance of vessels is competed to all shipyards. This means that Irving Shipbuilding and Vancouver Shipyards may legitimately bid on in-service support and maintenance, and they may partner with other companies in doing so.

Mergers and joint ventures are a normal feature of any industry, including the shipbuilding industry. They help maximize competition, innovation, and choice. BAE is one of the potential CSC bidders. Irving Shipbuilding has provided assurances that it has implemented measures to ensure that no information could create an unfair advantage for the Canadian surface combatant procurement process.

The government is aware of these measures and is satisfied that they protect the integrity of both procurement processes.

At Public Services and Procurement Canada, we are fully committed to the integrity of these two competitive procurement processes. We extensively engaged and consulted with industry prior to the release of the request for proposals for both the Canadian surface combatant project and AJISS. Although Irving Shipbuilding was responsible for issuing the request for proposals for the Canadian surface combatant, the government is involved, and will continue to be involved, in every step of this competitive procurement process, and will ultimately make the final call on the winning bidder.

Both the AJISS and CSC procurement processes are being overseen by independent fairness monitors who will observe the entire evaluation process. The fairness monitoring program provides client departments, government suppliers, Parliament, and Canadians with independent assurance that procurement processes are being run in a fair, open, and transparent way.

With respect to the request for proposals for the Canadian surface combatant, the government is responsible for key elements of the procurement, which will include determining the requirements and evaluation criteria, for approval of the evaluation plan. We also approve the request for proposals prior to its release. We also provide the fairness monitor. We will review the entire conduct of the evaluation process and final acceptance of the evaluation results. We also make the decision on the winning bidder.

As you can see, Mr. Chair, we're working to ensure the success of these important procurement processes. They're an integral part of the national shipbuilding strategy, which we hope will rejuvenate the marine industry, support Canadian technological innovation, and bring jobs and prosperity to many communities across the country. We're also working to deliver on the enhancements to the strategy by strengthening governance, building our internal capacity, improving cost estimates, monitoring progress, and ensuring value for money.

Thank you for your time. Again, I appreciate the opportunity to be here to speak with you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thanks to both of you for your comments.

Before I turn the floor over to Mr. Spengemann for the first seven minutes of questions, I apologize in advance if we have bells, but we'll have to deal with them.

Having said that, Mr. Spengemann, you have the floor.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Admiral Finn, Ms. Campbell, thank you very much for being here, for your service, for your important work.

Admiral Finn, I want to echo your words that we are indeed in an exciting time of naval recapitalization. I'd like to start with a broad question on the economics of shipbuilding and naval recapitalization. As you know, the Government of Canada is currently engaged in an infrastructure investment and upgrade project of significant magnitude. It will create jobs with a multiplier somewhere south of five, which means that for every dollar invested, we would get somewhat less than $5 in return.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I'm sorry, Mr. Spengemann, but I'll have to interrupt you right there.

The red light is on, and the Internet is telling me it's going, so I will need unanimous consent from the committee to continue for perhaps 10 minutes.

Will that give us enough time to head back over for votes?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I would suggest that we let Mr. Spengemann finish his time before we break.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Are we good with that?

11:20 a.m.

An hon. member

We will be returning, correct?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Yes.

Are we okay? Will we let Mr. Spengemann continue before we suspend?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Suspend after he's done.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr Spengemann.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll step on the gas and go straight to the question.

11:20 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Could you tell us about the economics of the shipbuilding program? What kinds of jobs are created? How has shipbuilding changed in the last decades? Qualitatively as well as quantitatively, how much is at stake? How much economic potential is there? How will Canadian firms fare, in your perception, in the procurement process?

11:20 a.m.

RAdm Patrick Finn

Thank you very much for the question.

Our colleagues at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada could probably give you some specific high level answers. In the broadest economic sense, I will certainly provide you with some answers, from my perspective, on jobs and also on the readiness of Canada's navy.

I have spent 38 years at National Defence looking at maintenance of ships. The availability of industry in Canada, where our ships are understood and where we have the supply chain, is a huge enabler for us to be able to do work. For us, the epitome of this is probably the Canadian patrol frigate. It has provided, from a build in Canada perspective, long-term jobs and long-term work for Canadians and for Canadian companies. It also has provided export opportunities for Canadian companies that did their initial work in the frigates and have become world leaders on integrated platform management systems and other systems of that nature.

From the defence budget perspective and from the operational perspective, I would also say that having these capabilities in Canada ensures that we are actually able to maintain and upgrade these capabilities. It is a huge capability.

As for your question about shipbuilding, enabling that in-service support, although it's different from construction.... The construction and ongoing construction of ships, bringing their systems together and integrating them is really the engine that enables the marine industry in Canada. It is what provides us with that long-term capability. Having that capability in Canada is why I've always been a proponent of build in Canada, not only as a proud Canadian, but as somebody who has to support ships and submarines and other things. If I were to compare it to our efforts to support the Victoria-class submarines, fortunately, I view a capability that's much maligned. They are very capable submarines that we brought to Canada without a supply chain and without, really, the knowledge and expertise to support them. Frankly, it took us 10 years to get ourselves completely organized, and the capability and the reputation suffered the consequences.

For the navy, build in Canada provides a long-term operational benefit and economic benefit. It provides the huge capability that we've seen in many companies. I could name a number of companies that have leveraged the opportunity to help Canada's navy and to also find work abroad.

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lisa Campbell

I'll add that although it's an industrial story, it's also a people story. Combat ships are actually being built on the east coast. On the west coast, construction is under way for non-combat vessels for the Coast Guard. Across the country, there is all of the in-service support work, as Mr. Finn has said. Between 2012 and 2015, 492 suppliers have received $1.3 billion in contracts, including indigenous suppliers and small and medium enterprises. There's a company in Newfoundland, started by a husband and wife, that specializes in 3D modelling. They have quadrupled in size, are now servicing Vancouver Shipyards, and are starting to win international contracts. It's those kinds of compelling stories.

Mr. Chair, when we saw each other out in Vancouver, I actually had a chance to visit the British Columbia Institute of Technology to speak to students there and to tell them we need them. I met a young woman there who has trained for four years to be a ship fitter. Half of her time was spent in school, and the other half was spent in the yard. There are some compelling stories of growth, but it is, in many respects, like a start-up with all of the growing pains that you can see.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thanks very much for that.

I wonder if I could follow up on the Halifax refurbishment and life extension program. In fact, I'd like to particularly follow up on the fact that New Zealand has indicated interest and has engaged with us in having their frigates upgraded.

Where do you see the potential of this project? What can the government do to amplify it to reach out to other potential partners and clients around the world?

11:25 a.m.

RAdm Patrick Finn

In shipbuilding particularly, probably like any manufacturing but being more aware of shipbuilding, what we would call the order book in the economies of scale, in other words, the more you build the same ship, the more you're building ships, the better you get at it, the more you drive down costs, when we built the Canadian patrol frigates, the ninth ship was about half the cost of the first ship.

What happens with New Zealand is perfect timing for them to say our having modernized 12 of our ships, they de facto would like to be shipped 13 and 14. It speaks to the opportunity. We often have this discussion with many people about going offshore and why other jurisdictions are better at building ships. They've just been building more ships recently. I think what's happened with Lockheed Martin, in this case Vancouver Shipyards, is that New Zealand and the two ships they're upgrading are identical to ships that were built in Australia. The Australians I believe had eight of them. They've upgraded them as well.

That they came to Canada and not Australia I think speaks to Canadian industry: the complexity, the achievement, what's occurred. They're going to install pretty much the same combat management system. They are retaining some difference in sensors, so some change is required there. I think the way my colleague put it, it speaks to the kind of start-up.

As we get going, in each of these classes of ships, there is the potential, and we do hear from other allies saying that we've paid for the non-recurring engineering, paid for the design, and they would be interested in coming in at the end of it and picking things up. I think the New Zealand work is perfect for that. I think our minister has spoken to his colleague in New Zealand.

We at National Defence will provide some expertise around quality assurance. That's fairly typical with close allies, that we work in each other's country. We are reaching out government to government and navy to navy. Admiral Lloyd has recently visited New Zealand to try to make sure it's clear that we want them to be successful on behalf of Canada and our industry.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

We're going to have to go. I would ask you to stick around and enjoy a coffee. We'd really appreciate it as we're not going to get you back.

Thank you very much.

We'll suspend.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Welcome back, everybody.

I'd now like to turn the floor over to Mr. Bezan for questioning.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Chair, it's unfortunate that we had to have the committee interrupted today because of the limitation of debate and of speaking in the House with the vote that was forced by the Liberals. It was unfortunate, to say the least, but I'm glad that both Admiral Finn and Ms. Campbell are back in front of us again.

I want to talk a bit about a couple of things on the current contracts that have caused some concern in the media.

One is the gag order, the clause that is put in the surface combatant contract, with Irving ultimately having the final say on whether or not the people tendering, the contractors or subcontractors, are allowed to speak to the media or to academics. Even though there was a clarification that was published by the government, Dave Perry said:

I don't understand how [anything] can be misconstrued. “You shall not speak in public”. It's an attempt to keep the competition out of the headlines.

If there is that type of gag order in place on the tender for the design of the future surface combatants for the Royal Canadian Navy, how are we going to be able to know that the navy is getting the best ship? How are we going to know that the taxpayer is getting best bang for their buck? When there's a gag order in place, how are academics, defence experts, and the public going to know whether or not the competition has been fair, open, and transparent?

12:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lisa Campbell

The communications notification clause, which is what was being referred to, has been amended so that the only restriction that applies will be to not make public statements regarding the outcome of the request for proposals process until Canada makes an official announcement. I should say that the clause that caused some concern on the part of industry was actually to ensure that the suppliers who were bidding on this do deal directly with Canada and the prime contractor. It was not ever intended to affect freedom of speech or the right to advertise. We support that. We know it's an important part of business.

What we're really trying to do is protect the integrity of the procurement process and make sure that it isn't tainted as we're in the middle of bid evaluation. Canada and Irving are committed to a fair, open, transparent process and open communication with bidders. In fact, we often do one-on-one communications with the entire supply chain. We've consulted with industry and with industry associations and are satisfied that everybody is content with the current arrangement.