National Defence Committee on March 8th, 2016

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't think that the transition takes very long. For example, when we were wearing the blue helmets, we were involved in serious situations where we lost troops in Bosnia. When we look at transition, we should be looking at what the situation requires. In Bosnia, the United Nations came for a certain period of time and as the situation changed, NATO took over that piece to bring greater stability.

Instead of looking at it from what we're going to do, what we need to get better at—and in Canada, we're very well poised for it—having a better understanding of the problem that we're facing, and then look at what type of capability we need to bring in and, more importantly, which multilateral organization is well-suited to bring stability into that region.

Regarding our troops, I'm personally confident—and I'll have General Vance speak to that, considering that he commands the Canadian Armed Forces—that our troops are very well suited to adapt to various threat environments.

[Gen Jonathan Vance]

Thanks, Minister.

I certainly agree with the minister. I think our edge has been well-educated and well-trained troops, well equipped and well led. I think that gives us an edge internationally and places us in the first tier of nations among our closest allies.

I'm not quite certain I understand your premise, where we were one way and now we're going to be another. We're not necessarily facing a broad transition just to one type of force. I think we remain polyvalents. Canada's reputation and I think our strength is that we bring the right capability to the right conflict at the right time, so if we need to do peace support operations, we do peace support operations. If we need to do train, advise, and assist, we do train, advise, and assist, and if we have to do combat operations, we do combat operations.

Maintaining a good baseline level of training from which you can transition rapidly to theatre-specific training is one of our great skills and talents in the armed forces, and I think we are very well postured as a result of our breadth of experience over time, including in the Balkans, to bring a variety of different skill sets to bear because no conflict now is static and in just one form.

I think you can be confident that the armed forces are and will continue to be well postured to be agile to work within a UN blue beret environment or work in a potentially more kinetic environment with a coalition of the willing. I think we have that range.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

That's all the time we have left for that particular question.

Thank you to the CDS for that.

I made a mistake earlier. We have another 12 minutes left on the mandate letter, so I'm going to move to Mr. Gerretsen. We're back on track, and everyone has their time.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have the floor.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

How long do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

You have seven minutes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

My mistake, you have five minutes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm going to jump right in. I have two questions and I don't think there has been a whole lot of discussion around the table, other than perhaps the first one, about care of our military personnel, and I'd like to explore that a little.

Coming from Kingston, where we have CFB Kingston, I'm quite familiar with the military resource centre, which is a centre that helps to provide services to family members of military who are deployed. One of the things I unfortunately witnessed was the fact that it seemed a lot more of the community was being depended upon to provide those services, and I think there is a much better role for us to play.

I'm curious what you think the government's role will be in that. In particular, in light of the fact that today is International Women's Day, it being March 8—and we're hoping to get more women into the military—and unfortunately as we're seeing that occur more pressures are being put on providing those resources. The resources that we provide to families of military personnel in particular will change with the fact that more women are coming into the military.

Could you expand on what your commitment will be to make sure that those families are taken care of? As you so eloquently put it earlier on, they are part of this process of having their loved ones deployed.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We have an absolute commitment to the member's family.

I think every Canadian knows, if things at home are not going well and there are concerns, how can one person operate effectively?

This point is even more poignant for our men and women who serve, because they are in very complex environments, dealing with very sophisticated equipment and very high-level threat environments. We need to make sure that they feel their families are looked after. That commitment will always be there to our troops.

Talking about the women in the Canadian Armed Forces, we're very fortunate to have a very inclusive Canadian Armed Forces. We do have some work to do in terms of increasing their numbers. There are some challenges that we need to overcome in terms of making it easier for women to look at the Canadian Armed Forces as a career, and at the same time, not to feel that they have to choose between a family and.... I know, personally. For example, there is paternity leave, and our members are encouraged to use that. But there is some work that needs to be done to increase our numbers.

One thing I can say with hand on heart is that the level of commitment and support by our leadership for increasing the number of women in uniform.... How we do that is going to take a bit more effort. I think today, especially the day that it is, we need to be able to send a message out to Canadians about our commitment to them.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

Quickly, from a layman's perspective, talk to me about the importance of Arctic sovereignty. It's something that seems to come up every once in a while in the media. It's something that I think resonates with Canadians because they understand the implications of it.

In your mandate letter you're given the directive to form a new defence policy for Canada. You go on to say that there will be a collaboration with Canada and North America. What do you see as our role in that in comparison to our partners in North America, in Arctic sovereignty in particular?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Very briefly, we have really good mechanisms in place, and one is in NORAD.

We also can't look at Arctic sovereignty strictly as national defence. With Minister Tootoo, we have to look at the wider picture of what type of presence we want to have in the Arctic with our Coast Guard. As National Defence, we provide one umbrella for that. We have good mechanisms in place, but we do need to be mindful of what that defence is going to look like, what type of surveillance, what type of presence.

I don't want to get ahead of myself before the defence review in answering some of these questions.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

You expect that to play a big role, and that will at least come out in it?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Bezan, you have the floor for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Minister Sajjan, General Vance, and Mr. Forster for taking time out of their very hectic schedules and coming here and appearing before the committee. This was a great opportunity for us as members to get the answers on your mandate letter and on the supplementary estimates (C).

I want to continue on this discussion that we've been having about Russian aggression. You talk about it in Ukraine. You're requesting some more money for Operation Unifier, for the training mission. I'd like to follow up on the question of Arctic sovereignty. Do you see the aggressive posturing of Russia, not just in Ukraine but in terms of what we're doing in Operation Reassurance and bolstering up Eastern Europe, and the buildup of Russian forces by opening two new military bases and reopening six others in the Arctic, as being disconcerting at the very least and something that we'd have to match?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It is concerning given Russia's posture. I think it goes even beyond that when we look at their early days in Crimea, then into Ukraine, and then their involvement in Syria. Russia needs to come back to the table and be a productive partner in the world. With regard to how we deal with this, I think it's important that national defence priorities be well nested with my counterpart Minister Dion's.

I think it's very important to bring Russia back to a level where it can be a responsible partner. That being said, I've had some very good discussions with my NATO counterparts with regard to making sure that we are responsive to Russian aggression and making sure that we have a responsive force. We are doing a considerable amount, I think, with our NATO partners. We have a company in Poland, as well as in the Ukraine, and there are some early discussions going on right now regarding what Canada's role is going to be with NATO.

One thing we need to be very mindful of, when we look at Russian aggression, is that NATO's solidarity is critically important to this. We do have that. As we move forward, I think having NATO working well together and seeing how responsive NATO can actually be sends a powerful message to Russia. Many meetings with my counterpart, Minister Dion, are coming up, and the Warsaw summit is coming up in July as well.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'm going to shift gears a little bit here.

Your mandate letter talks about you working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to launch an open and transparent competition to replace the CF-18 fighter aircraft.

During the campaign, the Liberal platform said, quite bluntly, that we would not buy the F-35 stealth fighter-bomber. Now cabinet has set up a secret committee to look at procurement. To follow up on that, just a couple of weeks ago, I understand, National Defence put almost $33 million into the consortium to maintain our position there.

I'm wondering if you're having a change of heart on the F-35 and are seeing it as something our military wants. There are some comments out there, such as those by George Petrolekas of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, who said he didn’t think there would be a significant savings in acquisition and he suspected there probably wouldn’t be a significant savings in operating costs either that could be plowed into naval shipbuilding if we didn't get the F-35 and got something else.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

One thing I'll be very clear on is that we're committed to replacing the CF-18s. It's too early right now, I think, to discuss some of the costs of the aircraft. There are a lot of details that I, personally, have to go into myself. We need to be able to choose what type of capability we need. When we have the defence review, we'll be able to decide what type of aircraft is needed to suit the needs of Canada, including within NORAD and to meet our responsibilities to NATO.

In terms of the program, we have been part of that program for industrial benefits. Going through the process and making that decision allows our Canadian industry to take part in the industrial benefits. Right now a decision has not been made. That in no way is an indication that we're going to be looking at buying the F-35s. We are part of that program; however, we're committed to replacing the CF-18s.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

But the Liberal promise was to not buy the F-35.

I was actually in Magellan Aerospace in Winnipeg just on Friday, touring their facility, at which they are already creating the vertical tail fins for the F-35. They already employ over 200 staff; they're going to have to go to over 300. We also know that over 60 companies have already acquired over $750 million in F-35 contracts. If we don't buy the F-35, all those jobs are going to be cancelled, because we aren't going to be participating as a true full partner in the stealth jet fighter program.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't think those jobs are going to be cancelled. These Canadian companies have been selected for a particular reason because of their skills. I know there's a company even in B.C. that has a uniqueness that it brings to the aerospace industry. This does not mean that these companies are going to be losing these benefits. As we move forward, regardless of what aircraft is decided upon, we need to make sure that there are going to be 100% industrial benefits for Canada. That will always be part of any decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'd like to thank the minister for that answer.

I'm just going to suspend for two minutes so we can shift gears, get new witnesses, and get some speaking notes for the next segment, which is going to be focused on the supplementary estimates (C).

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'd like to resume our meeting, focusing on the supplementary estimates (C) in the remaining time. This is a reminder that the minister will have to depart after 30 minutes, and maybe a little bit less than that now that we've eaten into the time a bit.

Minister, if you could introduce the new witnesses, I would appreciate that and then you have the floor for your opening statements.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to introduce Lieutenant-General Thibault, the vice-chief of the defence staff, and Mr. Claude Rochette, who's the ADM of finance, and Greta Bossenmaier, who's the chief of CSE.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you, Minister. You have the floor for your opening comments.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am here to discuss the Department of National Defence supplementary estimates (C). The department is requesting an additional $191.6 million in spending authorities to complete fiscal year 2015-16. This net change is in addition to the $219.8 million increase in supplementary estimates (A) and it brings the department's total budgetary authority for the fiscal year to $19.7 billion.

As I will explain, this additional funding is primarily for overseas operations, namely Operation Impact and Operation Unified.

As you are aware, Operation Impact is our military contribution to the U.S.-led global coalition to counter ISIL. Last month my cabinet colleagues and I spoke in detail about the government's efforts to refocus and enhance this mission. To be clear, however, the additional funding identified in these estimates is only for those elements of the mission that are already under way, so the previous year.

The Canadian Armed Forces are currently conducting air operations using Polaris air refueller and Aurora reconnaissance aircraft. They are providing training and assistance to the Iraqi security forces, providing capacity building to regional forces, and supporting the coalition with highly skilled personnel.

With that in mind, the funding in these estimates is mostly for personnel allowances, such as hazard pay, operating and maintenance costs for aircrafts and vehicles, and lodging costs.

In total, the department is requesting $211.7 million in additional funding for Operation Impact for the year 2015-16. The final costs for this fiscal year will be reported to Parliament in our next departmental performance report. As we look toward the next fiscal year, funding for the refocused mission will be reflected in the budget later this month. Following the budget, this committee will have the opportunity to further consider the expenses associated with this operation.

In these estimates, additional funding is also being requested for Operation Unifier, Canada's training mission in the Ukraine. As you may know, approximately 200 Canadian soldiers are providing training in the areas of tactical soldier skills, explosive ordnance disposal, military policing, medical support, logistics, and flight safety. This training mission is an important component of Canada's support to the Ukraine as that country seeks to safeguard its sovereignty and territorial integrity. As I said two weeks ago in the House, our military trainers are among the best in the world as they are providing a critical service to our Ukrainian counterparts. To support these activities, the department is requesting $7.1 million.

This brings the total incremental cost of the operation for this fiscal year to $16 million. Of note, $18.9 million of this funding comes from Global Affairs Canada.

In the estimates before us today, the department has also requested funds to support the health care of our men and women in uniform. Specifically, $2.1 million is marked for the construction of a health service centre in Saint-Jean, Quebec.

Today's estimates also include some transfers to other government departments. The most significant transfer is $8.8 million to Shared Services Canada for the Carling campus refit project. Starting this fall, National Defence headquarters is moving approximately 8,500 departmental employees and military personnel to a consolidated location at the Carling campus. To support that move, Shared Services Canada is undertaking the necessary modifications and upgrades to the existing buildings at the Carling campus. Together, National Defence, Public Services and Procurement Canada, and Shared Services Canada are working together to minimize the cost of the project to the greatest extent possible.

In closing, this government is steadfast in its commitment to effectively support the Canadian Armed Forces as they undertake the defence mission for Canada. In the coming year, as I mentioned earlier, I look forward to undertaking a comprehensive review of the priorities, activities, and resources that make up that defence mission. In the immediate term, I can assure you that these supplementary estimates represent core requirements for National Defence right now. This funding contributes directly to the operational success of our Canadian Armed Forces, and it helps to ensure that our military personnel and their civilian counterparts have the resources and support they need.

On that note, I'll be happy to take your questions.