National Defence Committee on March 9th, 2017

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay. I'll read my sheets, as it's going to be easier. One of the first decisions your government made was to withdraw Canada's six CF-18s from the fight against ISIS. Do you believe that our fighter jets contribute more to Canada's national interests by being stationed in Europe rather than Kuwait? Does Russia pose a greater threat to Canada and our allies than ISIS does?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We can't look at the threats in that way. ISIS poses a threat and we will be contributing in a way that's going to provide value to the coalition.

We're also working within the NATO context regarding what contribution we can make. That's how we've looked at it. For example, the Operation Impact mission, as I discussed with the former coalition commanders and the ground force commander, is about telling us what the threat is. What's your plan for it, and what do you need?

It's not just about offering up and saying what we have available. From that, we decided on the intelligence that was asked for. What type of intelligence? We built the ASIC and put the right tools in there for the coalition, which also put in some intelligence assets.

We talk about tripling the size of the train, advise, and assist mission. It's easy to say, but it's how and when we did that—the types of troops who went in, which units we're training, and exactly what they needed to do.

Now, if you look back, half of Mosul has been taken and the west is being worked on right now. Imagine all the work the coalition had to do coming up to Mosul, and all the preparation had to be done in the north by us. We had to not only train up the right troops but also to conduct operations and the planning for the peshmerga to set it up, so when the coalition, the rest of the operation, arrived, we were ready to go.

I can assure you it went extremely well and that's one of the reasons we've been successful in Mosul right now. It was what the mission needed. NATO is a separate thing. The threat is obviously different and we'll always look at any type of newer missions and what we can contribute.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Getting back to...

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Paul-Hus, that's your time.

I'm going to give the floor over to Mr. Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Sajjan.

Welcome to the other witnesses as well.

I will ask my questions in French, of course.

Among the transfers from National Defence to other organizations, there is a transfer to the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to cover costs for services associated with unexploded explosive ordnance, or UXO, for the Tsuu T'ina nation, since their reserve's land was used by the Canadian Armed Forces to conduct training operations from 1908 to 1998.

Having spent a number of years with our first nations, this transfer is important to me.

To date, how much of the reserve's land has been cleared of UXO? Conversely, how much more of the reserve's land needs to be cleared of UXO? What are the associated costs?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'll let the deputy minister answer that one. He has the details on it.

[John Forster]

This is an old weapons range that we used near Calgary, which was on first nations land. We have a lot of work to do to clean that up and do it well and quickly. We've been working very closely with the Tsuut'ina First Nation to do that. This is a further installment that will help us some more.

Currently, we think we have about 500 suspected sites of ordnance to remove and 42 sites across Canada. While this request is just for Calgary, the program we have is large, and we have a lot of legacy sites where we have not been good stewards in cleaning up the ordnance. We've spent about $10 million. We're putting more money into that program in the next few years to accelerate the work, and we'll work in partnership with the affected first nations and train some of their people to do some of the work.

What is the risk of serious or fatal injury by UXO? How is DND working with the Tsuu T'ina nation to prevent serious or fatal injuries by UXO?

[John Forster]

There's no question that you have to do it very carefully, and you do it with highly trained people. Susan can correct me, but I don't believe we've had any injuries to date in the program.

I'll ask Susan to come up. This is Susan Chambers, our acting assistant deputy minister of infrastructure and environment, ADMIE.

[Susan Chambers, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister (Infrastructure and Environment), Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Deputy.

Thank you for the question about UXO and the situation in Calgary.

I am not aware of any situations in the Calgary area where any personnel have been injured. Part of our program is dedicated to public information and a schools program. In the areas across the country where we have identified sites where there may be risk, public outreach addresses that risk to the public, and that's a yearly program for which ADMIE takes responsibility for the delivery.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I suppose the nation is aware of this.

[Susan Chambers]

Yes, as was noted in the supplementary estimates, there is a dedicated liaison officer in the nation and there is considerable awareness within the Tsuut'ina. I've met the chief from the Tsuut'ina band as well, and there is very good communication between us and the first nation. This is a priority in a number of first nations across the country as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Minister and officials, for joining us today. It's always good to see Admiral Lloyd and Deputy Minister Forster and everybody else. I'm hoping that everybody will make themselves available as well for the main estimates when they come out when we can get into the teeth of next year's budget. I want to thank you, Minister, and I enjoy hearing others at the table here.

The announcement today on the Valcartier accident was the correct measure to deal with the victims and the families in a compassionate way. I know that the ombudsman has made four recommendations on how to make sure we have programming in place in the future, God forbid this ever happens again. Are you going to be acting on those recommendations as they apply to future programming? We already talked about the Valcartier incident, so it is relevant. It's on the record.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm happy to mention it. When it comes to the cadets and this incident, this was about continuing the work that everybody has done in bringing it to a compassionate closure.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Yes, I agree 100%.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

At the same time, though, we have to look at the lessons from the tragic event and where the cadet program has gone since then. We have to look where the cadet program is at; it's not where it was. It is the best leadership program in the country. There was a reason it was taken away; they don't work on military weapons anymore. It's a leadership program, so there is a completely different system in place. As part of the defence policy review, we are looking at the cadet program and how we can make it better, making sure that the right people who are dealing with the cadets are well trained, the parents are more involved, and that we have the right programs in place for these things. The first thing we want to do is make sure we prevent any type of injury to our cadets.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that.

I also appreciate that you're not going to be using the Phoenix pay system to pay our military. I think to stick with the Guardian system and update it is a great idea. The Guardian system will be able to handle.... I appreciate that there's all-party support for the motion that we brought forward in the House today on the retroactive pay and benefits under hardship and risk for our troops who are deployed in Kuwait. Will the Guardian system be able to handle the retroactive capability to go back to September 1, 2016, and reimburse all those troops who were shorted that money?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Regardless of the system, at the end of the day it's making sure that the right payments are made.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That's perfect. Thank you, sir.

I want to also follow up on the recruiting discussion and the $1 million. When we're looking down the road, as was mentioned, we've talked readiness here as well as with our American partners. Recruiting is a big part of this now, and making sure that attrition isn't eating away at our capability from the standpoint of manpower.

Do you have specific targets as to what trades and professions have shortages in the army and navy particularly, but also the air force, and how you're going to target them through the advertising program and other recruitment measures?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Yes, but I think a much more thorough discussion will be had after we announce a new defence policy. Yes, absolutely, we will be targeting not just service but also trades. We need to look at technicians and mechanics, for example. We need to look at making sure we have enough people working on pensions. We're looking into all these things, and when I talk about efficient forces, it's making sure we have all the right people. If we spend all our money on the team, we've got to make sure all the right supportive measures are going to be in place, and we have to target that as well.

[VAdm Ron Lloyd]

We have a personnel process, whereby annually we take a look at all the occupations and then we take a look at the overall health of each occupation. From there we develop a strategic intake plan, and we take a look at how many people we're going to enrol in the Canadian Armed Forces and those are allocated to higher-priority occupations where trades are unhealthy.

Part and parcel of what we're trying to do through this advertising campaign is to identify those trades that aren't as healthy as we would like them to be in anticipation that Canadians will want to enrol in the Canadian Armed Forces in those occupations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Bezan, you have ten seconds.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'll just put this on the record. One of the things we heard down in Washington was that they're coming into a really big crunch for pilots, and I suspect the same will happen here with high retirement levels coming out of the commercial airlines. Of course, their main recruiting is from the air force. I'm sure that's something that's on your radar.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We already are dealing with some shortages and we need to get them—