Evidence of meeting #56 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jonathan Vance  Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
John Forster  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Charles Lamarre  Commander Military Personnel Command , Department of National Defence
Rear-Admiral  Retired) Patrick Finn (Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel, Department of National Defence

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Welcome to the defence committee. In particular, I'd like to welcome Minister Sajjan; deputy minister John Forster; Chief of the Defence Staff Jonathan Vance; and other military members and departmental officials, to talk to us today about the new defence policy.

I believe that the minister has eight to 10 minutes' worth of opening remarks. Then we'll proceed with formal questioning and everyone will get a chance to ask the minister and departmental officials questions about the new defence policy.

Minister, you have the floor.

3:50 p.m.

Vancouver South B.C.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan LiberalMinister of National Defence

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this opportunity to meet with you and committee members once again. It is my distinct pleasure to provide a brief overview of our new defence policy—“Strong, Secure, Engaged”. The Government of Canada is committed to keeping Canada strong at home, secure in North America, and engaged in the world.

First, I'd like to thank the committee for its efforts to contribute to and support the development of our new defence policy. In particular, the information and recommendations in your fall 2016 report on Canada's participation in NORAD and the defence of North America were extremely helpful. I also want to thank you for your most recent report, “The Readiness of Canada's Naval Forces”, which I look forward to reviewing and responding to in due course.

The parliamentary engagement in our new defence policy was part of our most comprehensive consultation exercise ever conducted on defence and security issues, and Canadians certainly had a lot to say, providing over 20,000 public submissions. That does not include the more than 4,700 participants who contributed comments online, or the many more who participated in nine expert round table discussions held across the country. We also spoke with our allies and partners, many of whom had recently updated their own defence policies and were able to share their experiences.

I suspect that we heard similar things to them during our respective consultations. For one thing, we heard that the Canadian Armed Forces has long been underfunded and under-resourced. We expect that our allies were told the same about their respective militaries. As you know from your work on this issue, the status quo spending on defence is insufficient to maintain the current capability. Your observations regarding the global security environment and aerospace threats to North America, the requirements to modernize NORAD to meet evolving threats, and the importance of strengthening the Royal Canadian Air Force were all very timely.

Since I began as Minister of National Defence, I've been clear that my first priority is that our women and men in uniform deliver on the vision set out in “Strong, Secure, Engaged”. We will grow the size of the regular force by 3,500, to 71,500 personnel; and increase the reserve force by 1,500, to 30,000. We will also hire an additional 1,150 civilians in the Department of National Defence to support them. We are improving how we recruit and have put in place targeted initiatives to attract, enrol, and retain women and men who reflect the diversity of Canadians.

The members of the Canadian Armed Forces are proud to serve their country, and we deploy them to difficult and dangerous environments. We have a duty of care to our women and men in uniform, and we are committed to improving the assistance, services, and care we provide them, and to their families as well, for the duration of their careers as they transition to post-military life. They deserve nothing less.

Our new defence policy will keep Canada strong at home, secure in North America, and engaged in the world. Being strong at home is about ensuring the safety and security of the Canadian people, which is our top priority. The Canadian Armed Forces will monitor the approaches to Canada and have high-readiness assets available at all times to respond if potential threats are detected. We will detect, deter, and defend against threats to, or attacks against, Canada. The forces will also develop and maintain a robust capacity to respond concurrently to multiple domestic emergencies when called upon in support of civilian authorities. We will ensure that our search and rescue crews, who assist thousands of people in distress every year, have the resources they require to help Canadians when called upon.

Being secure in North America means that we will be active in a modern, continental defence partnership with the United States. The policy pledges us to work closely with our neighbour to modernize NORAD to meet the threats in an evolving security environment. This includes continued co-operation in renewing the north warning system, on which we are already collaborating with the U.S. To further protect North America, the policy commits to expanded aerospace and maritime domain awareness and control, and to taking an all-perils' approach to protecting against the full range of air and maritime threats.

Being engaged in the world means that the Canadian Armed Forces is well-equipped to contribute to a more stable, peaceful world. As Minister Freeland noted when unveiling our new foreign policy priorities, it would not be in Canada's interest to leave world peace and stability to the great powers to settle among themselves.

Our policy will prepare the Canadian Armed Forces to advance Canadian international security objectives, from conducting expeditionary operations to engaging in capacity-building with partners, and to support our allies where our shared interests are at stake.

At all times, Canadian engagement will be guided by the Canadian values of inclusion, compassion, accountable government, and respect for diversity and human rights. We will pursue leadership roles and will prioritize interoperability in planning and capability development to ensure seamless cooperation with allies and partners, particularly with NATO. We will be a responsible international actor, including through participation in United Nations peace operations.

Key to achieving that is providing our people with the tools they need to get the job done. In your report you identified an urgent need to move ahead with the recapitalization of the Royal Canadian Air Force. Our new policy outlines numerous projects that will result in greater air power. For example, we will acquire 88 advanced fighters to replace the CF-18 fleet, through an open, fair, and transparent competition. This will help ensure Canada's long-term relevance in the future security environment and help us to meet our NORAD and NATO commitments simultaneously. However, air power means more than just fighters, and we intend to provide the air force with the resources it needs to take on all assignments.

Your report called for airlift capability, which is essential to our ability to operate when and where we are needed. As such, the Globemaster and the Hercules fleet will be sustained and our utility transports, the Twin Otters, will be overhauled and their life cycle extended until at least 2025. A replacement project is also planned to ensure the ability of the Canadian Armed Forces to operate in the north over the long term.

Canada's utility tactical transport helicopter provides tactical airlift to soldiers and helps with the rescue of civilians in the High Arctic and offers support during natural disasters. We will ensure its reliability through a platform life extension, in addition to planned modification under the CH-146 optimized weapons system support contract, valued at $640 million over 10 years. We will also dedicate additional personnel to better leverage the exceptional information gathered by the sensor suite of the CP-140 Aurora, and support capabilities such as air-to-air refuelling by the CC-150 Polaris, and we will eventually purchase new replacements as well. These capabilities will be critical to the success of the Royal Canadian Air Force for many years to come.

Our new policy is ambitious. However, it is also the most rigorously costed defence policy in Canada's history. It is backed up by a commitment to sufficient and long-term predictable funding. This policy will increase the annual defence budget by more than 70%, from $18.9 billion to $32.7 billion by 2026-27. It also includes new defence funding of $62.3 billion over 20 years from today's budget.

As I've stated previously, I do not believe that the level of defence spending as a percentage of GDP tells the whole story with regard to our actual contribution. Canada has consistently shown that it is ready to step up when it matters. However, “Strong, Secure, Engaged” will see Canada's defence spending reach 1.4% of GDP by 2024-25. Of that, almost one third will be spent on capital projects, exceeding the NATO target by more than 60%. Whenever duty calls, Canada's military will have the means to take on the task, whether that involves enforcing our sovereignty, monitoring our approaches, supporting diplomacy, delivering humanitarian aid and disaster relief, enhancing capacity building, or strengthening global peace.

I'm very proud of “Strong, Secure, Engaged” and would be pleased to talk about any aspects of our new defence policy.

I welcome your questions.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you very much, Minister.

The minister has agreed to stay for the two formal rounds of questioning so that everyone will get to ask their questions. To keep everybody on track who is asking or answering questions, I will signal when you have 30 seconds left so that you can sum up your remarks before I move on to the next person.

I will yield the floor to Mark Gerretsen for our first seven-minute question.

June 20th, 2017 / 4 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, thank you for taking the time to come to speak with us today. I appreciate your comments thus far. I can tell you, from representing a community with a military presence, CFB Kingston, there are a lot of good discussions going on about the new defence policy review. Members of the community are excited to see how it will roll out.

One specific topic I want to discuss with you is the fact that post-traumatic stress disorder is becoming more and more common—at least the willingness in the military to discuss it. It's obviously something that has affected our military personnel forever, I guess you could say. The increasing discussion of it now and people's willingness to to talk about their particular struggles is making post-traumatic stress disorder a more and more predominant topic in the overall discussions of the health of our men and women in uniform.

Can you elaborate on some of the initiatives that will help focus specifically on those who are suffering from PTSD?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

First of all, I would like to say that this defence policy focuses on our members, making sure that we invest early, from the time they enrol, and making sure that we look at providing the investments and the tools necessary so that we can prevent and build resilience, whether it's mental or physical support that's needed. That's the real core emphasis of this policy, to invest early and to build that resilience. In case they are injured, and it's needed, we're making sure that we'll be working very closely with Veterans Affairs on this. We have the transition group that's going to be created to make sure that we also look after our members and that they have all the supports necessary.

Chief, do you want to add anything further to that?

4 p.m.

General Jonathan Vance Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence

Thanks, Minister.

It's a matter of significant concern for us, obviously, and anybody who's injured needs to be cared for. You're right, it's becoming more prevalent in the discussion, which is a good thing. It's important that mental health in general be something that people can talk about and that we, first and foremost, eliminate barriers to discussion and barriers to care. That's job one, and we're doing that in a variety of ways by talking about it and encouraging people to talk about it.

The surgeon general has been very clear, as have I, that mental health is something that you can recover from, deal with, get better from, manage in your life, and still have a successful career. There are some cases, just like physical cases, in which you are debilitated to a point where you may not be able to serve, but you still, as the minister says, need to be able to go through an effective transition. That's one reason for that transition group.

I would also say, though, that we need more research, more science, and far more work done on diagnosis, prevention, and screening so we can understand, when someone arrives into the armed forces, if they have a lack of resilience that needs to be worked on. What do we do for resilience training? How does that work? All of that needs to be underpinned by science and evidence, and so we are working on that across the board.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you, General.

To follow up on that, you've addressed very adequately how you're dealing with it. One thing that might be of concern to me is that, despite the fact there's a lot more discussion about PTSD, there still is, inherent within military culture, a certain amount of a don't-ask-don't-tell kind of mentality of being worried about discussing things like this, and in particular as it might relate to mental health. Would you say that there are adequate measures in place that encourage people to come forward to talk about these particular health issues they might be encountering?

4:05 p.m.

Gen Jonathan Vance

The short answer is yes.

Your premise is one that I don't entirely agree with. I think that not being open about your personal mental health challenges is prevalent within society. In fact, I think what we're seeing in the armed forces is that we're turning a corner where people ought to be—and if they're not they're encouraged to be—open and seek treatment and counselling, whatever it takes. At the front end, I think we're one of the organizations in the country that will take the notion of resilience, resilience training, and life skills and deliver those formally and professionally so that people can withstand the rigours of military service.

The fact is that it is absolutely correct to characterize the military the way you just did in the way we were. We've come from there. We want to move forward from that point. We will be dogged, I suspect, by a history in which we maybe weren't as careful in paying attention to this, but we are now, and people need to know that. That said, we still need the science to do better. We still need to be able to treat people. We need to value individuals and recognize that people recover from and manage mental health challenges.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you. That's what I was getting at, that the changes are happening and things are different now. I'm really glad to hear you confirm that.

Minister, just going back to another aspect of the defence policy review, if I read it correctly, I notice that more than $6 million annually will be going towards military resource centres across the country.

Having seen the way the military resource centre works at CFB Kingston, I can attest to the fact that these are great resources, particularly for families of men or women who have been deployed. Quite often I think we forget about the fact that the families are going through a lot during the deployments of loved ones as well.

Can you expand on the approach you're going to be taking towards these resource centres through this additional funding?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

In fact, the defence policy focuses on members and their families. We recognize that our family members serve alongside.

The family resource centre plays an absolutely critical role in supporting our members, not only deployed members, but also regular force members who are continually being posted, making sure that we can assist them with finding doctors, finding jobs. These are the initiatives that we want to have taking place to make it easier, so that at the end of the day, when a member knows that their family is being looked after, they can be even more effective with the duties that have been assigned to them.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Thank you.

I will turn the floor over to Mr. Bezan.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Minister Sajjan. Welcome to committee.

I want to concentrate on the fighter jets that you talked about in your comments as well as in the defence policy. On page 38 you talked about the interim fighter capability, but what's not talked about are the Super Hornets.

At this committee on December 1, 2016, as well as numerous times in question period—including on February 23—you said that we're buying 18 new Super Hornets. Is that statement still true?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

We are in consultations with the U.S. government. We need to fill this gap to make sure that we can meet our NORAD and NATO commitments simultaneously, and I've said this many times.

What the focus—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Right, but is it going to be Super Hornets?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Yes, the focus is to make sure...as we, at the same time, look at replacing the entire fleet. That's one of the reasons we are committing to buying 88 fighters as well, so that—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Sir, you're not going to get an argument from me about buying more planes as replacements. I'm okay with that, and I think most members of Parliament are.

But are we buying Super Hornets as an interim capability solution?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

We are in consultation with the U.S. government towards that goal.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Are you aware, Minister, of the study that was just released by the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, the interim Super Hornet survey project, in which 88% of defence experts across Canada believe that you should cancel your plan for an interim purchase of 18 Super Hornets?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I respect the findings of that group and people who have made that suggestion, but as a government, we think it's unacceptable that we are not resourcing our air force to make sure it lives up to those commitments.

Not only do we want to replace the entire fleet with the competition and invest in the legacy fleet, but we also want to make sure that we have, in the interim, the full capabilities. We want to spend the appropriate resources for the air force so that they can start fulfilling that commitment.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

The defence experts, though, in this report emphasized that this was a politicized decision of an alleged capability gap. In the report, one person even said that it was politically created for political purposes. One expert said that if there were a true capability gap, the government wouldn't now be threatening to cancel the deal over Boeing's trade dispute with Bombardier.

Which is more important here, the trade dispute or getting the right planes for our troops?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

First of all, it would be a different story if we weren't going to be replacing the entire fleet with a full competition, and we are doing just that.

One of the additional things is to make sure we have full confidence that we can transition into a permanent fleet, and that investing in an interim capability is important. I respect their findings, but we want to go above and beyond that to making sure that we have the full confidence to be able to meet those obligations.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Minister, at CANSEC you stated that Boeing is no longer a trusted partner. Why?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

One of the things is that we disagree with the U.S. Department of Commerce when it comes to the process they have taken. The Minister of Foreign Affairs is currently reviewing this. Our government believes that protecting our jobs is also important. We're going through a process now, and we'll know shortly what the findings are, but we are committed to making sure that we fill this capability.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

If they're no longer a trusted partner, why would you be pursuing the Super Hornet?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Sorry?