Evidence of meeting #8 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was threat.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre St-Amand  Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

9:20 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

I could describe NORAD's evolution in four ages.

The first age was Soviet long-range aviation with gravity bombs, in such a way at that time in the late fifties that the air battle was going to take place just north of our border. That's how the air defence system was designed. Really, the only threat was in the aerospace domain. That was the only thing that was capable of reaching North America. Later, we talked about the introduction of ICBMs. That threw NORAD into a bit of a self-questioning mode. Was a conventional air defence system useful at that point given another domain, really, a ballistic missile flying through space? After much debate, there was a conclusion by both nations that in fact a conventional air defence system as a deterrent was a part of the deterrence to such an attack, so NORAD survived.

The second age came about as a result of the first generation of cruise missiles. That forced us to push forward to the north and defend further up north, where the battle zone, if you will, was pushed to our northern perimeter and into Alaska. Again, still the only domains that were really capable of being used to attack North America were aerospace and, in space, ballistic missiles.

The third age, 9/11, made us look inside. We know the story there.

We're now in the fourth age. The fourth age is the age of these advanced cruise missiles, with their very long range, which is challenging our ability to intercept and kill those vehicles before they can cause us harm. They can be launched now by our maritime platforms. Maritime avenues and maritime approaches are now a domain that is more prominent than ever before in terms of a threat to North America or a capability to reach North America. That is a big change.

While all this is going on, of course, you have cyber, which is happening every day. While I can't go into more detail, it is apparent that this is something that we're all concerned about from a continental point of view, starting from the national point of view.

As I get into this description of what we see from Colorado Springs, then certainly the maritime domain is something that we should look at expanding into.

Again, cyber is very complicated. I am not sure that we could reach a binational one on cyber, other than just co-operation and the exchange of information. We're still probably not mature enough to envisage a continental defence against cyber. It is very national in nature, and there are a lot of sensitivities and so on and so forth.

From the land perspective, while it's probably the last domain, we still don't see a current threat. I'm not talking about counterterrorism, which is something that is totally different, but a traditional symmetric threat to the land domain is probably something that we're not totally concerned about yet.

To summarize: aerospace domain, maritime domain, cyber, and land, and there are more as far as evolution is concerned.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

That's your time. Thank you for the question.

We're going to move to five-minute questions now.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have the floor.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I want to talk briefly about our north warning system. Some experts have been saying that it's reaching the end of its life and that we're either going to have to extend it or replace it. Would you agree with that?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

Yes, sir, for both questions or issues of capabilities and issues of sustainability.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

You've said that “Russia was able to deploy long-range, conventionally armed cruise missiles comparable to western systems this year”. Given the fact that the threats are changing and the fact that NORAD is continually evolving, what does that mean for that detection system in terms of its evolution, not just through the technology, but what about the physical locations? Are they far enough north? Given the fact that the Arctic seems to be opening up, do we need to reposition that kind of stuff? Do we need to move our forward operating locations?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

It's a great question, and the answer—

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I know. That's why I asked it.

9:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:25 a.m.

An hon. member

He only asks great questions.

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

That's fantastic.

The answer is still being developed.

You're actually right, in that I think it would be a mistake to assume that radars are going to replaced one by one at exactly the same locations. I talk about a system of systems, and it may be that we're going to find ourselves in the configuration where we're going to have advanced technology with sensors and radars that can be further south but that will be able to look way further out in the north.

That's what I mean by replacing a capability with a modern capability. It's not necessarily a one-for-one replacement. It's not necessarily about using the same location. Really, it's about exploiting the latest technology in order to improve our way to sense, detect, and track whatever is coming.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I'm trying to understand.

Are you suggesting that they should be further north, or are you suggesting that it's possible that they can stay where they are because the technology has advanced in such a way that they don't need to be further north?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

What I'm suggesting is that we need systems that can look further north. Whether this is going to materialize in the form of radar sites further north or other technology, I am not sure.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

When do you expect that replacement to occur?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

It's all based on the 2025 date, or thereabouts, I have to say, because it's never clear. Again, it's not a cliff; it's a graceful degradation. It could be an option where we'll be looking at extending the radar if there's not a solution that's apparent immediately. Those are always complex issues to deal with, and the commander RCAF will be our champion in that matter.

From a NORAD perspective, we are married to mission requirements. We submit our mission requirements, both in the United States and in Canada, and then the force generators produce the material that we need to meet those operational requirements.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

You made a comment that I found interesting. You said that our response to cyber threats is the least mature and there's a lot more work to do on that. Obviously I understand that cyber is newer than some of the other threats.

Could you expand on what's required to bring it to a more mature state in terms of our understanding of it, our ability to react?

9:25 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

It's a matter of knowledge. It's a matter of equipping ourselves and training ourselves. It's also a matter of policy.

From a NORAD perspective, I always refer to the fact that we should be working with the United States. If the policies nationally are not mature, if the capabilities are so sensitive that we can't share, it's difficult to join hands other than on a basic level of information sharing. That's what I mean.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

So when do you think we'll be at that stage?

9:30 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

It's a good question. I don't have an answer for that, sir.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Okay.

How much more time do I have?

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

You have a couple of seconds, but I don't think it's long enough for a question and answer.

We'll move to Mr. Paul-Hus for four to five minutes.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, is it possible for the committee to get a copy of Admiral Gortney's report when it is submitted to the Chief of the Defence Staff?

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

When we get it, we can. Sure.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, General.

Since we began this study, we have often had exhaustive discussions about the question. Our committee has heard people in the past who told us about threats. Lieutenant-General Michael Hood appeared before our committee last week to talk about Canada's air capacity.

One of the objectives of the current defence policy review is to guarantee Canada's sovereignty. There is close collaboration with the United States within NORAD, certainly. However, if the American capacity were to be removed overnight, would Canada have the means to guarantee its sovereignty?

9:30 a.m.

Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), Department of National Defence

LGen Pierre St-Amand

Are you talking about guaranteeing our air sovereignty on our own, without NORAD support?