Evidence of meeting #81 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
February 13th, 2018 / 9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Latkovskis, welcome to the Standing Committee on National Defence.
Last January, I attended a presentation in Washington by the RAND organization, which presented us with various possible scenarios for Russian intervention in your country and in neighbouring countries. They talked about military movements and military capabilities. To date, NATO countries have deployed battalions.
At the end of the day, in your opinion, is the biggest threat a military invasion or a cyber attack?
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
In reality, if we look at today's world, I think more threat could come from cyber-attacks. Russia actually used this against Estonia at one point, when they didn't like the fact that Estonia was moving a Second World War monument. They were not taking it away. They were simply moving it to the cemetery outside of Tallinn. Then they were severely attacked.
Then the world saw for the first time what kinds of capabilities official Russia has. When you hear about all these “Fancy Bears“ or something, this is just a name. Actually, these are special units somewhere in Russia and Moscow or somewhere else.
There's more threat than this, but it is like this because we can deter. The decisions by Warsaw or Wales or you being there, it's deterrence and deterrence worked before, and it works now. Deterrence really works. I'm not afraid of invasion, military invasion. In reality, cyber-attack could come right away.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
What you are telling me is that the military presence is sort of provoking Russia, and therefore Russia will carry out more cyber attacks against your country.
Do you think that having NATO troops on the ground is escalating the conflict?
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
No? Okay.
Do you think that Canada could be effective if it conducted operations from here? The Internet has no borders, so we might be able to help you from here. Do we need to deploy so many troops?
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
To be more precise, I'm not saying that because NATO is there that we are more prone to attack from Russia. I am saying that cyber-attacks are more possible in today's world, and Russia easily uses this because nothing keeps them from doing that. We just talked.... We have elections in Latvia this fall. A cyber-attack could be very small, or it could be as big as it was in the Estonian case when many government websites and systems were taken down for some days, and in some cases, even a week.
I doubt that they will do this because NATO troops are stationed in Latvia and they have no use for that. Now and then, they test us simply to see our weaknesses. I'm not talking about Latvia but the Baltic States, or Eastern Europe, or Europe in general, and North America. There's no reason, specifically, to attack Latvia.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Right now, in Canada, we are studying Bill C-59, which deals with cyber attack and counter-attack capabilities.
Do you think NATO countries should have cyber attack capabilities? Could Latvia request this capability? For example, could Latvia say that it would like Canada to conduct a cyber attack against such and such an element in Russia?
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
No, we wouldn't like to tell anybody to attack Russia in any way. That's not our aim.
Our aim is to be a safe, democratic, and prosperous country. To achieve that goal, you don't have to occupy another country or take part of their territory, no, not at all. We have suffered from this, and that's why we believe in the modern, democratic western world. The thing is, because we are a democracy we don't do some things that are done by authoritarian regimes.
I think North Korea also has this capability for cyber-attacks, although there are almost no mobile phones or anything like that, and everything is forbidden, but they have this capability. How do they have it?
I wouldn't request, and I don't think Latvia would ever request that somebody attack somebody else on our part. No. We have no intention of attacking anybody—never, ever. Not even pre-emptively. We're not Israel.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm wondering if you can tell us what the general perception is of Latvia's citizens with regard to Canada's role in Operation Reassurance.
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
It's very positive, I have to say.
Even before Canada became a framework nation, there's one thing that you really know about. We all share a passion for ice hockey. We, as a small nation, have really good results. We've stayed in the highest league all the years now, as a small nation. Many other bigger nations like Italy are kicked out. They come in and go back, but we are staying there. There are many Latvians who have their kids playing ice hockey—not only boys, but girls as well.
This is where you sometimes feel like soulmates. Ice hockey is a big thing in Latvia. At least in our minds, you're crazy about ice hockey. I don't know how it is in reality, but I saw an ice hockey rink in front of your Parliament.
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
We don't have one here.
Conservative
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
The Conservatives were really happy when we built that.
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
You had 150.... We have our 100 years of independence celebration. Of course, the opposition is complaining, and even people in positions like me are sometimes complaining about spending so much money, but not so much on sports as on cultural activities.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
I'm just trying to get it out there. I'm giving you the opportunity to....
We see a lot. Through our work, when we went abroad, from the discussions that we've had around this table, there seems to be a great amount of satisfaction with Canada's participation at least on the parliamentary, government, official level. I just want to know if that is just as equally regarded by the average citizen who's walking around in Latvia.
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
It is. Really, I'm also not living in the clouds. I have the opportunity to talk to people on the street.
I don't play ice hockey; I play soccer. I play three times a week, and there are guys from different professions. There are construction workers, teachers, people who own big companies. When they talk to me, it's always about politics, also about security.
In reality, I'm not bragging. It's appreciated. It's very much appreciated.
Some were surprised at the beginning, why Canada? For many years, Canada was out. Even a few were out of Europe.
Now since you're there, no incidents have been recorded involving your troops. They are very active when we have some sports events or so on. We organize and you get involved in being there, showing your equipment, talking to the people, as I said. Many Latvians speak different languages so they have the possibility to talk to you.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
I have to cut you off because I'm limited on time, but I appreciate that you got to the issue there.
Out of the four battle groups in this operation, Canada is leading the one in Latvia. Can you give us a sense—we all know, but I'd like to hear from you—of the comparable size of the different operations, and in particular, the number of nations that are in Latvia under Canada's leadership?
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
We know well the situation in Latvia. Right now, there are 1,200 military personnel involved in Latvia, seven nations that will—
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
Yes. There will be nine. The Czechs and Slovaks are coming.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Out of curiosity, how did those nations—and I'll just stick to the ones in Latvia—decide that they wanted to go to Latvia?
Chair, Defence, Interior and Anti-corruption Commission, Saeima, Riga, Latvia, As an Individual
Maybe politicians in those countries have better answers, but at least in my discussions with our military personnel responsible for this mission—what they have told me and what I have seen myself—for many of these countries one of the decisive moments is when Canada took a leading role.
You can imagine that in Europe, very often there is military training happening. Many European countries and units travel to each other and take part in training, because the distances are not great, of course. Canada is not a country that very often gets involved in training. Americans are more present in Europe—they are always there and they encourage us—but this was something that pushed other countries in that direction, to take the decision to play a part in Latvia.
