National Defence Committee on April 26th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Before I go to MP Fisher, let me say that there will be time for additional questions. In the next five or six minutes, then, just get my attention or the clerk's if you want another question, and I'll work it out to make sure everyone has an opportunity.

Go ahead, MP Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much for being here.

It's an absolutely fascinating discussion. I think I said during the break that I thank you for your bluntness. This is what we need to hear. I for one am learning so much from some of the comments you're making.

What I'm interested in and have been interested in also in our previous panels on this discussion comes down to the whole question of what peacekeeping is today and the way it has changed.

Carolyn, you said peacekeeping has drastically changed and really hasn't been peacekeeping since the Cold War. I'm thinking about the evolution of peacekeeping from the Cold War to when we pulled out of peacekeeping to today. You used some lines, and I hope I don't attribute anything to you that may have been said by the previous witness, but—

[Carolyn McAskie]

I don't mind taking credit.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

“We have no choice; re-engaging is a necessity. It's still the best way.”

“We have to step up to the bar.”

“We deploy because there is a need.”

Those are important comments that were made by, I think, all three of you.

Now that we see the changes in peacekeeping and see that it may not actually even be peacekeeping now, I think Canadians as a whole and maybe citizens around the world as a whole still see it as they did back in the Cold War, or previous to the 2000s, anyway: they still see it as blue berets. They still see it as perhaps a neutral force between two warring factions.

I'm interested in both of your takes on how we get this out into the public so that they see the change, see the difference, so that they don't just think of peacekeeping the way I was brought up to think of peacekeeping.

[Carolyn McAskie]

Well, I think you need to get the media on the line. The media is still bringing to the table people who are talking about what happened 20 years ago, and that's what shapes what people think.

I've been following this in the media. In fact, I have with me Bob Fowler's article in The Globe and Mail from a couple of weeks ago. I felt like just sending it in and saying, “Here's my submission.” You need more people like that speaking up.

The Canadian public is perfectly capable of understanding complexity if you present it. There's no reason that all of you can't have events in your various ridings. Talk to people and talk to the media.

There's a recent opinion poll survey that Environics or one of those companies just put out, a major study of Canadian attitudes over the last 10 years. Canadians still define themselves as interested in the international community, interested in what's happening in the greater world, and they are assuming that Canada will play its part.

It's up to the government now and the Commons as a whole—all parties—to convey to Canadians that we have to play a more complex role because it's a more complex world. I think Canadians will buy that.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Dorn, I'll give you the remainder of the time, but you tied exactly to what Carolyn just said about Canada's identity being tied to peacekeeping. Again I apologize if I'm paraphrasing and taking some of your words out of context, but that is what I took from one your statements: that part of our identity is tied to what Canadians envision peacekeeping to be.

Do you want to finish off on—?

[Prof. Walter Dorn]

Sure.

I give a whole lecture on the evolution of peacekeeping. I'll submit to the committee a figure that will give you a good view of how you can view peacekeeping as part of peace operations as a whole—peacemaking, humanitarian assistance, peacebuilding, peacekeeping, peace enforcement. That's NATO-Canadian doctrine that's well established.

Concerning our identity, yes, we have a country that identifies with peacekeeping. It's shown in the polls. The last $10 bill had a woman peacekeeper with a blue beret underneath a banner that said “Au service de la paix—In the service of peace.” We have many great service people in francophone countries, where we have unique capabilities. We have a multicultural background and can make a contribution that's different from that of our American neighbours, a way by which we can show that we have a distinct identity in the world.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

That's perfect. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

MP Bezan is next.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I welcome both of our witnesses to the committee—again, in Mr. Dorn's case, of course.

I was listening intently to what you've been saying in talking about what Canadians think. What they think and what reality is in UN missions today are quite different things. There's still that nostalgic view of the blue helmet or blue beret, which Professor Dorn was just talking about. The reality of the risk factors facing them on the ground in a mission such as Mali....

I agree that comparing Mali with Afghanistan may not be the right option, but Canadians, especially our veterans, also remember Rwanda and Somalia and the difficulties we experienced there. There is apprehension on the ground that we all face in our ridings. We don't have the luxury of always being in the Ottawa bubble or sitting behind a desk in a government office or teaching our class at university. We have to face the voter, and there is a concern about this particular mission and about peacekeeping in general. Roméo Dallaire's book added more understanding about the bureaucracy and red tape at the UN, which works not necessarily in collaboration with a proper chain of command when conducting a military operation.

First and foremost, this is a discretionary mission, as all missions are, other than an article 5 mission under NATO. We had General Lewis MacKenzie here on Tuesday, and he talked about the discretionary factor.

Ms. McAskie, you just mentioned that there are still problems within the UN, that they're under-resourced and understaffed in carrying out the mandate of all the various missions the UN undertakes. Can we say with confidence to Canadians that when we are moving troops and civil servants into harm's way on these missions, we are making sure the threats and risks they're facing are mitigated to the best of Canada's ability?

[Prof. Walter Dorn]

I think we can. The Canadian Armed Forces has a chain of command. The chief of the defence staff never loses his command of the forces in the field, and they take very thorough precautions to ensure that the men and women in uniform are adequately protected.

In Mali the fatality rates are less than one-third of what Canada experienced in Afghanistan. There was a 1% chance of dying per year over the 10-year period in Afghanistan. For the Mali mission as a whole, the fatality rate is 0.3%, and most of those deaths are of Chadians and African troops. The western forces have very few fatalities—I think nine—and of those, you can number on one hand the number who died under malicious attack. In terms of malicious attack in Mali, then, the risk levels are quite tolerable.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

The base where Canadians are going to be stationed in Mali is at Gao. The Germans are there right now. It has faced attack. What are the stats around that particular base?

[Prof. Walter Dorn]

I have been in Gao. I was there in January and I was there in July last year. Yes, Gao has been attacked. I'm not aware of any fatalities as a result of those attacks. Even when I was there in January, I could hear gunfire in the distance.

Most of the time, most of the people in these towns are safe, and the super-camp in Gao is very well protected. I've been in the German compound. The measures are excellent.

I've documented the use of counter-RAM—that's “counter-rockets, artillery, mortar”—radars that the UN has contracted, I have looked at the Swedish and the German radars that are being used, and I've documented cases in which lives were saved because of the use of technology in the mission.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Ms. McAskie, you talked about what has happened in Libya. You also mentioned Afghanistan. After a NATO-type mission or a coalition mission such as we've seen in Libya, Iraq, or Afghanistan, is there a role to which the UN should have been stepping up to do follow-up, to ensure that there was stability and peace after the military mission had partially wrapped up? If so, why didn't it happen?

[Carolyn McAskie]

Definitely, but again I go back to the very first point I made in my general intervention: that the UN is us. Is there a role for the UN? Yes, there was a proposal on the table in Libya, after the military intervention, for there to be a comprehensive peace mission to go in and secure the area, and members weren't interested. It never made it through the Security Council. I don't know the exact details.

As I said, I'm retired, which is why I can be blunt, as Mr. Fisher says. Retirement is the most liberating thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you for the response.

I'm going to move over to MP Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Professor Dorn, in one of our previous meetings we were talking about the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre, which was closed in 2013. In doing some research, I came across an article in iPolitics dating back to April 2016 that reported that the non-governmental organization named CANADEM called for the reopening of the training centre. Have you heard of this organization? Do you know anything about their reputation?

[Prof. Walter Dorn]

Sure. They're headed by Paul LaRose-Edwards. They're on Nicholas Street. Their primary funding now is coming from the British government. They help provide civilians from not only Canada but countries around the world to international organizations to serve on missions. I've been asked at least a dozen times by CANADEM to deploy on mission.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I also found a report that you co-authored in February 2016, and you had a number of recommendations in there. The third recommendation spoke specifically to the opening of the new peace operations training centre for civilians, military, and police. Can you elaborate a little bit on the importance of that?

[Prof. Walter Dorn]

Currently we don't have a place where military, police, and civilians can get together and do education and training together. We have the Peace Support Training Centre in your riding, but it's so important that the military get exposed to the other components of peace operations and that they learn to work under civilian control. Unlike NATO missions, UN missions are civilian-led. Carolyn led one of the previous peacekeeping operations. We need to be able to increase the military's awareness of working with civilians, including police, and also international civilians.

We're really lacking in the capacity to do operational- and strategic-level education on peace operations.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

When you say we need to increase the military's awareness, is this different from the situation a few decades ago?

[Prof. Walter Dorn]

One of the recommendations of the Somali inquiry was that Canada needed to better train its forces. It was one of the brutal lessons from the Somali debacle. The Pearson Peacekeeping Centre and the PSTC, the Peace Support Training Centre, were created as a result of that hard-learned lesson, and it seems to me we have forgotten that lesson and we have to get back to it.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Do you have any idea what the cost would be of reopening a training centre like that? I think you quoted a number in that study. Is it the same? I think you were at between $10 million and $20 million, if I remember.

[Prof. Walter Dorn]

I think that would be an accurate estimate, yes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

That would be between $10 million and $20 million.

Do you have any sense as to where the best location for it would be?