National Defence Committee on May 29th, 2018

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

This is just components. We're only talking about building some blocks and then delaying the actual final assembly until after they get caught up on Coast Guard vessels.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to have to leave it there. However, you might get a question on this from MP Garrison, because he has some activity happening out in his neck of the woods.

MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd be happy to hear what Mr. Finn was just about to say on the question of gaps on the west coast.

[Patrick Finn]

Thank you, sir.

What we're trying to do is take a more programmed approach, as opposed to a bunch of stovepipe projects where we start one, we finish one, what do we do...? It's why we're in discussion with Seaspan, the Vancouver shipyard, about what's in the art of the possible.

When we talk about some blocks of the ship, this is a rather large ship. We've acquired a mature design, the German Berlin-class design. Basically, the entire forward part of the ship is untouched for the design that we acquired; therefore, it's very mature. We are in negotiations now and hope to announce soon the ability to move out and actually advance that work. It's a substantial part of the ship.

The kinds of blocks we're talking about combined would be much greater than the ships that are being built today out there. To be able to actually move that work around to make sure that we load-level the work in the shipyard.... For any production facility, that is always one of the big points for success, actually: to try to make sure you maintain that workforce and they continue to be employed. That is what we have under way, sir.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

That sounds like very good news. I do have the twin concerns of maintaining employment and of not losing the expertise of people because of gaps in the employment, so thank you very much for that answer.

I'm really pleased that we have the judge advocate general with us today. I'd like to turn my questions now to the military justice system. Bill C-15 passed in the previous Parliament, and there were great delays in proclaiming sections of that act and getting on with the reform to the military justice system. I know you've been in the job just under a year, so I'm not going to ask you if you've finished everything, but I'd like an update on where we are, because I understand that most of the remaining sections of Bill C-15 will be proclaimed very soon, and my understanding is that those reforms should get under way September 1. Can you give us an update on those reforms?

[Commodore Geneviève Bernatchez, Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

I'm pleased to confirm that the regulations that were related to the coming into force of Bill C-15 have now been completed and approved. We will see these sections and regulations coming into force on September 1, 2018.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Is the system really prepared in terms of the training that was necessary and getting information out to people in the military about the changes? I think what we're really trying to address here is confidence in the military justice system. People have to know about these changes and how they'll affect them for them to be effective.

[Cmdre Geneviève Bernatchez]

Thank you for your comment about the confidence in the military justice system and its legitimacy. You know how important it is to me and how hard I've been working over the past several months to ensure that more information was given to the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian public about that system.

The downside of having regulations that take a while to get drafted is that it takes a while to get them approved and for changes to come about. The advantage of that is that it's given us the time to look at training and at the implementation of the changes that would be provided for under the regulations. We've been actively working over the last several months developing the training packages that will be required to bring up to speed Canadian Armed Forces decision-makers and those who apply the military justice system and train them in the new changes.

The training will be available by mid-June, so that when the regulations come into force on September 1, those who are qualified to perform actions in the military justice system have the required knowledge and training.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Do you feel you've received adequate resources to implement all these reforms as of September 1, or are there still things that will be held back that you will be unable to do?

[Cmdre Geneviève Bernatchez]

I always like to say that there are never enough lawyers, because, of course, legal issues are becoming more and more prevalent in all departments and Canadian society at large. Right now I'm satisfied with the resourcing I have.

With the new tracking systems I will put in place in the next several months, I'll be able to identify whether there are gaps and then make evidence-based analysis and come back to the department, to the deputy, to the chief of the defence staff, if I do need more resources, but at this time I evaluate that I have enough resources to answer the bill.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I have to say this is something I've followed since I was elected to Parliament, and finally, we're making some progress, so my congratulations to you on the progress that we are making in this area.

Two things were left out of Bill C-15 and are now before Parliament in Bill C-77 , and those were provisions with regard to victims in the military justice system and also the provisions with regard to the treatment of aboriginal offenders within the military justice system. My question is really about whether the delays in getting this legislation into force will impair the new reforms. In other words, I'm feeling things would be better if these were implemented at the same time. We have a lot of changes taking place without the victims' rights part and without the aboriginal offender part.

Do you have any comment on that? Would that require further adjustments and further training?

[Cmdre Geneviève Bernatchez]

There is great news in the fact that on May 10, Bill C-77 was tabled in Parliament, and we'll have to let it follow its parliamentary process in order for it to be approved and come into force. I'm also pleased to say that, while this is occurring, we are not immobile, and we're not looking at this as unfolding work. We're taking concrete action to implement as many rights as possible for victims within the military justice system and to ensure that indigenous sentencing considerations are made by courts even as the act follows its course.

In fact, what the legislation will do in many respects is to enshrine into legislation those rights and those considerations that are already, in large part, being provided for by policy directions that have been given either by the director of military prosecutions or by our service tribunals.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I know it's kind of a truism that opposition members aren't always happy at estimates discussions, but this is making me very happy. Again, I congratulate you on the initiatives that you've taken and give you the assurance that New Democrats have agreed that we will expedite Bill C-77 in any way possible in order to support the work you're already doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

The last seven-minute question will go to MP Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

My first question is to Admiral Finn.

I would like to take the opportunity to take us back to the discussion one more time on the Australian F-18 fighter jets. I want to put to you the rather unfortunate characterization of these aircraft by members of the opposition. The fact that these are aircraft have been flown before should in itself in no way denigrate our capability that will be created through the acquisition.

Canadians don't necessarily understand the way inspection cycles work and airframe fatigue works. When I served with the United Nations in Iraq, we routinely availed ourselves of airframes of the C-130s that were manufactured in the 1960s. In speaking with aircrew and mechanics, I learned that the central components are engines, engine maintenance, potential upgrades, avionics upgrades, and making sure that the main spars are within their fatigue lifespan. Could you inform the committee in a bit more detail what's involved? I'm quite happy to hear that we haven't negotiated individual tail numbers yet. What are expectations of the residual lifetime of these airframes? What are they going to be used for? Are the women and men who are going to fly them going to be safe?

[Patrick Finn]

In this particular circumstance, as you indicate, we've had other fleets of C-130 aircraft, the ECHO series, that we retired in recent years that had been built in the 1960s. What is very fortunate in this case is that we have been co-operating with our Australian colleagues for decades on understanding the fatigue life and how what we call the legacy Hornet, the CF-18, operates, where it takes fatigue, and how it operates at high altitude and at low altitude. We have literally taken new aircraft and tested them to destruction. We literally set up test beds and did that, so we had absolute understanding of how that aircraft operates. It was done as a combined test effort. A lot of the data was done here in Canada, in Montreal.

As a result, our knowledge of the structures is world-leading. In fact, the U.S. military sends aircraft to Mirabel to be repaired, as a result of our knowledge. As a result of it, the Australians gave us access to all the data of each of the aircraft. We know exactly what shape they're in.

We have actually expanded that further and we have discrete inspection points where we actually put the aircraft through a very detailed maintenance process, strip it down and look at it. Our experience with our own aircraft has been that there is less fatigue than expected, but nevertheless we've been doing that. They have followed a similar process. As we look at these aircraft from a structural perspective, we're very confident that what we have will be safe for anybody who flies in them. For us, that is job one.

That is part of my role, to ensure that the director of technical air worthiness works for me for all the aircraft, and also that it is capable of the mission and combat-capable. There are things we will do to the aircraft for configuration purposes—for example, in ejection seats and those sorts of things—just so that we're not supporting two different variants.

These 18 aircraft, plus a number of spares, will roll in and become part of our fleet. At some point they'll probably be indistinguishable from our existing aircraft. They will go through periodic updates to ensure that they continue to be safe and operationally capable.

You realize we're moving on to the next fleet, but this is a combat aircraft that needs to be combat-capable at all times, so we have some other initiatives we are looking at—weapon sensors, communications—not just for these aircraft but for all of them. We appreciate that the last of these could be operating to 2032 and must continue to be combat-capable.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much. That's very helpful testimony.

My second question is to Ms. Thomas.

My colleague Ms. Khalid asked the question about gender equality in the Canadian Forces. I would laud the work that's being done to make sure women are not just welcome but equal to men with respect to not just employment in the Canadian Forces but actually serving in the Canadian Forces.

I want to ask you about transgender Canadians, Canadians whose gender identification is not binary. What have you done so far and what might still need to be done to make sure we're fully inclusive across the gender spectrum with respect to the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Jody Thomas]

The government and the Department of Defence, Canadian Armed Forces, are fully committed to building a defence team that reflects all Canadians and is open and inclusive. In our defence policy, we announced a number of initiatives to fully leverage diversity. We're looking at enhanced training, recruitment, and retention. There are members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are transgender and their employment has not been impacted or affected. They are welcomed into the Canadian Armed Forces. As Admiral Hawco said, we are the only armed forces in the world where every trade and job occupation is open to anyone who chooses to take on the job. There is zero discrimination in terms of opportunity. Ships are retrofitted so that they are open and inclusive and any gender can use them regardless of where you identify. At bases, and it's the same in office buildings, wherever possible, we're ensuring that they can be inclusive.

I think that the Canadian Armed Forces are a reflection of society and we're learning as we go. However, the medical branch of the Canadian Armed Forces and the senior leadership of the Canadian Armed Forces are certainly seized with this issue in ensuring that discrimination does not occur and when it does occur that they react immediately and respond to it.

Admiral Hawco.

[RAdm D.C. Hawco]

What I would add, just to put a personal face to it, is when I was fleet commander in 2011 there was an individual in one of our ships. He was going through a gender reassignment to she. The deputy referred to configuration inside the ship; we're talking about living quarters. How did we approach that? We approached that by speaking to each of the individuals who was also sharing the mess deck as she moved into the female mess deck. How do you feel about that? We talked about where you would want to use what shower facilities. We particularized and personalized so that people understood. We asked the individuals to please speak to your spouses. Make sure your spouses or partners understand how they feel about that. Have that dialogue at home. We had regular discussions.

I did not meet with the individual because there could be a bit of stress when a senior person comes and talks to you. We wanted to make sure that this person identified and had a person assisting them so they could understand and vocalize any concerns they might have.

I would wrap up by saying that we talk about the culture in the military and we talk about the traditions and the challenges of evolving it. In a five-year span everyone has been promoted once and posted twice. Your frame of reference completely changes and the ability to evolve the culture in the Canadian Armed Forces is fluid.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to give the floor to MP Robillard.

If you want to share your time you're free to do that.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The 2018-19 departmental plan states that the Department of National Defence will “implement the Defence Energy and Environmental Strategy, DEES, which outlines initiatives led by the Department of National Defence in support of Canada's commitments in greenhouse gas reductions, and obligations for protection and stewardship of the environment”.

What specific measures does the Department of National Defence intend to implement in 2018-19 with respect to environmental protection and the environmental sustainability of military bases?

[Jody Thomas]

I'll start and then I'll ask our ADM of Infrastructure, Elizabeth Van Allen, to respond.

It is no surprise with the footprint that the Department of National Defence has that we are one of the larger emitters of greenhouse gas. We are taking a very aggressive approach to reduce our footprint wherever possible. We're investing $226 million in a wide range of infrastructure to reduce our carbon footprint by modernizing infrastructure and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. We're transitioning 20% of non-military light-duty vehicle fleets to hybrid and electric by 2020, which is a significant improvement. All new construction and major recapitalizations have to meet the leadership, energy, and environmental design standards or equivalent. Much of our infrastructure is very old. This is a major recapitalization and it's going to take some time but we're working hard at it.

Elizabeth can respond to any specific projects.

[Elizabeth Van Allen, Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Environment, Department of National Defence]

In terms of the projects that we have, there is $63.2 million for a range of different infrastructure projects that will include things like new energy performance contracts at CFB Petawawa, for example, and the clean energy pilot with RidgeBlade at CFB Trenton. We're partnering with the National Research Council to launch a smart buildings pilot across a number of bases in military housing life-cycle upgrades. These are just some of the examples of projects where we're committing to greening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

You can share your time with whomever you like. It's up to you. You have about two minutes for a question and a response and then I'll have to give it over to the other side.