National Defence Committee on May 29th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the defence committee.

Minister, members of the Canadian Forces, and department officials, thank you for coming today to discuss the 2018–19 main estimates. I think this is the first time in the 42nd Parliament that we've done it in committee. We've done it in committee of the whole a couple of times.

Minister, I'm going to give you the floor for your opening remarks. The floor is yours.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, members of the standing committee, thank you very much for having me here today. It's kind of nice not to be in the committee of the whole, although I kind of miss that too. We had such a bonding experience for all of us during those four hours.

I appreciate the opportunity for me to present on the main estimates for national defence for the fiscal year 2018–19. I'm very pleased to appear before you in the company of my deputy minister, Jody Thomas; Shelly Bruce, the acting chief of the Communications Security Establishment; Rear-Admiral Darren Hawco, who is the acting vice chief of the defence staff; and senior members of my defence team who you see here today.

In just over a week, we will celebrate the anniversary of the launch of our new defence policy, “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, SSE. The policy was not only a road map for the next 20 years, but it was a commitment to do defence differently, a commitment to move toward a mindset of investing in our armed forces. Through SSE, we have committed to increasing the annual defence spending to $32 billion over the next 10 years, an increase of over 70%.

In one year's time, we have accomplished quite a bit and we are very proud of that and very proud of the team that has accomplished this.

Today I will detail some of the most significant accomplishments in line with our main estimates. In SSE, we said that care for Canadian Armed Forces personnel would be our primary focus. We said we would offer enhanced tax relief for Canadian Armed Forces members on deployed international operations. We have done that. We said we would launch a suicide prevention strategy with Veterans Affairs. We did that. We promised to integrate gender-based analysis plus into our activities, and that has happened. We announced $6 million in new annual funding for the military family resource centres, and that has been delivered. We said we would appoint a diversity champion and implement a new charter for the sexual misconduct response centre. This also has been done. We said we would further modernize the military justice system. We have tabled Bill C-77, which introduces a declaration of victims' rights and will make the overall system more efficient.

On innovation, we promised to introduce the IDEaS program to seek out the best defence and security ideas across the country. That has been done.

On procurement, we said we would give the military what it needs to do the important work. That is well under way. We said we would explore an interim fighter capability now. We are examining the acquisition of 18 Australian F-18s. We said we would also launch an open competition for the future fighter, and that has been done. We also have a new fleet of 16 Airbus C-295s for search and rescue. The first one is scheduled to be delivered at the end of 2019. For the navy, we are acquiring a fleet of five to six Arctic patrol ships, the first of which is expected next year. We are hiring more people into the materiel group to help deliver on these and other procurement projects.

In many ways, the successful implementation of our policy so far is due to the way we manage our cash flow and support a flexible funding model. In last year's main and supplementary estimates, we requested $20.97 billion. For the second year in a row, we will have no lapsed funding. This has not been done at DND since the early 2000s. Instead, we will be carrying over $677 million. This is done for a very good reason: the department cannot reduce this further without taking the chance of overspending its appropriation at the end of the year.

A small, unplanned change in forecast may make such a difference. For example, a one-cent fluctuation in the U.S. exchange rate costs us approximately $16 million. All of this reflects better forecasting for capital investments and other improved financial management practices. In addition to reducing the discrepancies between forecasted and actual spending, the department only requests funding it knows it can spend. For instance, we planned to bring in $6 billion last year for capital investments, but ended up requesting just $4 billion. Here's why: about 30% of the funds were unspent because we were able to cut costs through better contracts and unused risk mitigation strategy, which is a good thing.

For example, in some cases we put aside funding to pay for intellectual property, but this expense did not materialize over the first year of the projects, and 27% of the unspent funds were the result of our own internal processes and the additional time required to analyze options for some of the projects. We will continue to review our project management process to find greater efficiencies.

Another 42% of the unspent money is related to delays in delivering goods and services by industry. Simply put, we will not pay for non-performance. We take this extremely seriously. This is why we are introducing new initiatives to increase our collaboration with industry and help reduce such delays.

Other changes to our financial management have also helped us to get to where we are today. Our shift to the accrual basis of accounting enables better, longer-term planning of defence capabilities over the next 20-year period. Because our funding model is flexible, we are not forced to spend money before it is the right time to do so. This strategy to request funds only when they are needed offers greater transparency to parliamentarians and to Canadians.

Also in the vein of openness and transparency is our plan to release our first defence investment plan publicly. This will be done very shortly. This publication will ensure that Canadians and the defence industry can see where we will be making capital investments so they can engage with us accordingly. In fact, I look forward to speaking about the plan with industry professionals tomorrow at CANSEC.

So far, I have focused on the work that we are doing to support the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces, but I would be remiss if I did not take a moment to reflect upon what they have accomplished this past year.

At home, we have performed life-saving evacuations of Canadians at risk from wildfires and offered critical assistance to flood relief efforts in Ontario, New Brunswick, and British Columbia.

Abroad, about 1,900 personnel are currently deployed on 18 active international operations, including in Latvia, Iraq, and Ukraine. As you know, we will deploy an air task force to Mali as part of our commitment to peace support operations.

So, Mr. Chair, all of this brings us to the funds we are requesting under these main estimates. We have achieved tremendous momentum through good work in the last year. The task at hand is to build upon that momentum, continue supporting our forces, and serve Canadians. For that, we are requesting $20.38 billion. That is $1.7 billion more than last year, or a 9.2% increase.

Within this, $1 billion is for operating expenses, $658 million is for capital expenditures, $12 million is for grants and contributions, and $9.2 million is for statutory allocations.

The difference between the $20.38 billion in the main estimates and the $21 billion that appears for the fiscal year in SSE will be covered by requests made through the supplementary estimates process. Those costs relate mostly to operations and capital projects.

We recognize how complex the defence budget is, so our CFO and I will be happy to walk you through any of the budgeting in detail so that we can provide further clarity.

Let me assure you that we remain on track to implement our defence policy over the next 20 years.

I am also requesting $624.9 million for the Communications Security Establishment. That is roughly $28.9 million more than in last year's main estimates. These funds will help maintain the security of our IT systems while ensuring that the sensitive information Canadians entrust to government is protected.

Mr. Chair, before I close, I would like to take a moment to thank all the parliamentarians for the tremendous work that all of you have done, and on that note, I'll be happy to take any of your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you, Minister.

Just a reminder to members that we have the minister, as per the notice of meeting, for about an hour, and then we'll go to department officials.

I'm going to give the first question to MP Spengemann. The floor is yours.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

Good morning, Minister. It's great to be with you and your senior staff.

The committee is currently doing a study on UN peacekeeping. I wanted to take advantage of your presence this morning to ask you about the main estimates. There's an appropriation of I think $8.9 billion in funding for ready forces personnel. I'm wondering if you could elaborate, in a bit of detail, on how that relates to Canada's commitment to UN peacekeeping, and convey to the committee your vision for the way forward in peacekeeping and peace operations.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'll give you the overall aspect, and then I'll turn it over to the officials to provide greater detail on the financial side.

One of the things we know is that we have to do peacekeeping differently. This is not the peacekeeping of the past. We have to look at what has changed from the past and adjust our methodology, making sure that we contribute to the United Nations and help improve the reforms they too are undertaking. We know that multiple missions are going on. From this, how do we look at working together with like-minded nations to improve the overall system? This is one of the reasons why smart pledging is something that the UN has been asking for for some time. Smart pledging will make sure that high-capability assets can be delivered for multiple missions. One of those capabilities is helicopters, which we're providing to Mali.

The other aspect is about how we do training differently. We need to be able to look at capacity-building differently. Canada has a very unique experience on this, and we will be able to do this. How do we look at reducing recruitment numbers into radical organizations? This is where the Vancouver principles come into play. I want to thank Roméo Dallaire and the Dallaire initiative for their tremendous work on this.

Plus, there's the Elsie initiative. We know—research shows—that having more women on peacekeeping operations helps reduce conflict. How do we incentivize that? This is where the Elsie initiative also comes into play.

Those are the aspects of what we're doing. In terms of the actual details of costing stuff out, I'll turn it over to the officials.

[Jody Thomas, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

In terms of peacekeeping operations, we intend to deploy 250 CAF members, starting in the summer, for a 12-month mission, as you're aware. The budget for that is in two parts. There's the yearly flying rate for the air force, for the helicopters we're sending. We're sending two Chinooks and four Griffon helicopters. The other cost for that, of course, is the cost of the personnel.

It's straightforward. We will be reporting on it as we proceed with the operation.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have a brief follow-up question, if I may. Peace operations have become very complex. In a way, it's almost a whole-of-government exercise to make sure that we do things well and that we devolve on to nascent governments if it involves a failed state.

Could you comment briefly on the importance of civilian professionals being in the field alongside Canadian Forces members who are doing the governance work, and the integration of those two efforts?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think we all know, given current conflict today, that the military alone cannot resolve conflict. We've been very clear about this as a government, not only with the United Nations but what we're doing in Iraq. We're presenting a whole-of-government approach that provides all the tools necessary for the current situation that's taking place, and, more importantly, being able to adjust the resources as a government.

I'll give you an example. In any situation, sometimes you need to be able to put in military resources more, based on the development work. But everything has to work together seamlessly so that you can put in the right development work that can support the military efforts and the right capacity-building. Now, this is easily said, but it's extremely difficult to do. More importantly, it's getting a lot of our allies to also do more of this, and getting the UN contributing nations to focus on this as well. The civilian component is absolutely crucial for making sure that the development and the capacity-building are delivered in a timely manner that helps deal with some of the issues that started the conflict. That will be essential as we move forward.

This is one thing for sure: Canada cannot do it alone. We'll contribute to the overall success of the UN.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much for that, Minister.

My next question is about cybersecurity. Budget 2018 committed $155 million for the creation of a new Canadian centre for cybersecurity. That's to establish a single, unified government source of expertise, guidance, services, and support. This centre would provide Canadian citizens and businesses with a clear and trusted place to turn to for cybersecurity. In fact, I've had corporate stakeholders come up to me as a member of the standing committee on public safety and ask me what the Canadian government is doing in the field of cybersecurity.

With respect to the main estimates and the increase we have for CSE, I'm wondering if you could talk to us briefly about the importance of cybersecurity for our government and also for our civilian infrastructure.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

In addition to the investments that we, as government, are making in cybersecurity, it's going to require not only the right resources, but the right legislation as well. As we know, there is a greater concern around cybersecurity. We just heard yesterday in the news about the potential hack on two of our banks. I can assure Canadians, and also Parliament, that we have very bright Canadians working in CSE who are doing tremendous work.

We have tremendous capabilities, but our legislation has not kept up with this. Bill C-59 will give the authority to our agencies so we can actually utilize these capabilities. Part of that is working with industry to assist industry and work in far greater collaboration to support their effort. The cyber centre will be able to do just that. We have spoken to our allies about this, and looked at what actually works and what does not work.

More importantly, we also have to look at the evolving changes. We're going to make sure we have the right money and the research so we stay at the cutting edge. I'm confident that with the brilliant minds we have at the CSE and some of our other agencies, we will be able to remain there.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We will go to MP Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here along with all the officials from the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. I appreciate all the hard work you all do in support of our troops and promoting Canadians' interests abroad.

Mr. Minister, Prime Minister Trudeau announced back in 2016 that we were going to deploy 600 UN peacekeepers and 150 police officers. Are we going to make that target, or is it just the 200 you're talking about now who are going to Mali?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No. The announcement we have made is about giving us the flexibility of having up to 600 people we can deploy, but we wanted to do it in a smart manner that contributes to the United Nations. As I stated before, the strategy we have put forward to the UN is not something we have done in isolation. We've actually worked with the UN and with some of our like-minded partners on how we can improve the system of the United Nations and make it more effective.

Traditionally, we have done peacekeeping where we picked a piece of ground, and then we are part of the actual system. How can we make the overall system better? For example, we can—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I have a lot of questions on Mali, and I want to get to them. You announced in November 2016 in an interview you did with the Toronto Star on November 11—on Remembrance Day—that we were going to deploy 600 troops to Africa. Here we are, two years since the Prime Minister originally said that we were going to be deploying troops on UN peacekeeping. It hasn't happened yet. It's going to be August. Why is it taking so long?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We now have the flexibility to go up to 600...based on our deployment into Mali and the tactical airlift that will go into Entebbe. We now have the flexibility based on the plan that we have. We can go up to 600, and we will make adjustments. As part of the smart pledges, we will not only be there, for example, for an indefinite period. We will be in a smart rotation. You will see the numbers fluctuate based on what we're actually providing.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Under your watch, we've seen that UN peacekeeping numbers now have gone to the lowest levels in history, since we've started UN missions. In March, it was down to 22. During our tenure, it was anywhere from 150 to 300. You're down to 22. This month it's maybe 46.

Isn't that embarrassing, when you're talking 600 but you only have 40-some-odd troops actually deployed?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No. The main objective is to make sure we're actually effective. That is a poor measurement, when you look at the numbers. We said, about making the missions far more effective, when we put a high capability into the United Nations sometimes we will be up to 600. Sometimes we will be lower, depending on the rotation. We are going to do peacekeeping differently. We're going to make sure we put the right assets into place, working with like-minded partners, to make the multiple missions more effective.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's taking a long time. From the time you made the announcement back in 2016, to the time we're going to deploy, is almost two years. We deployed an air task force into Operation Impact, but measured in weeks not years. We put out our CF-18s; six went over. We had refuelling capabilities, and two Auroras. Over 400 members of the armed forces were on the ground in Kuwait supporting Operation Impact, never mind special operations forces. That happened in weeks.

The armed forces know how to deploy. That's what they do. Why is it taking so long to move a small helicopter air task force to Mali?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let me assure you that when it comes to the planning it does take a little bit longer than that, but we also promised to making sure—and I think you can agree with me—that anywhere we send our troops, one, we are going to send them for the right purpose, that they can meet the right mandate, and that we can advance the capability that the UN is requesting, but more important is making sure that when we send our troops they are going to be safe and they're going to have the right rules of engagement.

We're going to do our due diligence. I will not speed up the process just for the sake of meeting a certain timeline for any type of a competitive nature. We will always make sure that when we make a decision we're going to achieve the mission and our troops are going to be able to achieve the mission because they have the right training and equipment.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Minister, were you aware, when you committed our troops to the UN mission in Mali that they could be repurposed by the UN to support the G5 Sahel anti-terrorism operations?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Sorry. I didn't get that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When you made the decision to send our troops to support the UN mission in Mali, were you aware that the United Nations has a caveat that they can use our resources, our troops, to support the G5 Sahel counterterrorism operations?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We're here to support the work that the United Nations is doing, and in functions they do work with other partners. We have given the flexibility with our Canadian Forces. If it's a time of need, we will always be supporting our allies, but we're there to support MINUSMA, the mission, and the contributions that we are making are going to do just that.

This is about having a smart pledge, working with like-minded partners, providing a helicopter capability that's focused on medical evacuation and transport, but having the right flexibility in making sure that we don't repeat some of the issues that have gone on in the past and making sure that our commanders on the ground have the flexibility to be able to make the right adjustments to exercise the right support.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

So that brings about the question, then: who is in charge? Command and control: do we maintain control over our troops or is that actually the United Nations, and—