Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, it is extremely important that we protect the integrity of the investigation right now.
Two weeks ago, allegations were brought forward and now they're being properly investigated by the appropriate authorities.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Are you saying Minister, that Mark Norman's investigation was compromised because he was suspended from his position? That's why you didn't want to risk the same thing happening in this investigation and that's why you decided not to remove General Vance from his position as CDS?
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I completely disagree with the premise of this question. You're making a lot of implications.
I can assure you that if any allegations were ever brought to me, they were always very quickly taken to the appropriate authorities so that appropriate action could be taken. When it comes to looking after our people, I take my responsibility extremely seriously. Especially when it comes to hateful conduct and sexual misconduct. These are the types of things we want removed.
I want answers. Everybody wants answers right now. Right now, with the appropriate investigation, we will get the appropriate answers.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Minister, are you aware of the possibility of any other reports of sexual misconduct, fraternization, harassment or other inappropriate behaviour by any of your general officers currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces?
And, have any other investigations or concerns been raised involving officers assigned to the U.S., NATO headquarters, or any other foreign assignment?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, we have to be extremely mindful. We are not the investigative body. Any allegations that come forward have to be given to the appropriate authorities. That's the process we have. It has to be independent of my position. It has to be independent of any politician, so it can be thoroughly investigated independent of any type of interference.
I can assure you if any allegations are ever brought forward, they are always taken with the utmost seriousness.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, Minister, for being here today.
Minister, in my view, ensuring that our senior military officials and our chief of the defence staff went through a thorough selection process is key to safeguarding our members' safety and confidence in the chain of command.
I understand that the chief of the defence staff is a Governor in Council appointment. In other words, it's not a regular Canadian Armed Forces promotion. It's my understanding that the minister can't appoint or remove a chief of the defence staff.
What can you tell us about the selection process of a prospective chief of the defence staff?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Obviously, I can't talk about the selection process for the previous chief of the defence staff, because we weren't here as the government at that time.
Because it's a Governor in Council appointment, it's not the minister's responsibility. It's led by PCO. This process is extremely vigorous and thorough to make sure the appropriate questions are asked and the appropriate person is selected. I believe that PCO can answer some of these questions.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Does PCO want to weigh in on that? I guess we'll get that later.
Minister, can you share more about why you can't talk more about the CFNIS investigation? You said that in your opening remarks. Can you clarify why you can't talk about it more?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I'm glad that question was asked, Madam Chair.
In our democracy, our police are separate entities and independent for investigations. When complaints comes forward, they need to be thoroughly investigated, because there's a process that takes place. As a former police officer, I know that the integrity of the investigation has to be independent. If it ever goes to court, you need to be able to defend the entire process. That's what we're trying to do here.
We have people who have just come forward, and to make sure that they receive the proper respect and that the process is followed we need to protect the integrity of the investigation and not accidentally undermine it. It is completely independent of me, as minister; it is independent of the chain of command. That's exactly what we want, so that we can give the confidence to the members who have come forward that they will get the appropriate process and mechanism to support them during this difficult time.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Minister, media have reported on a meeting that occurred between you and the ombudsman. I understand that there is a ministerial directive saying that those conversations are private and confidential. Can you explain why this is necessary?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
First of all, it is absolutely important that the conversations and meetings be kept confidential, because the ombudsman's office itself is an independent body so that people can come forward; so that when people come forward, they can have trust that their allegations will be heard and also that their conversation can be kept private.
The ombudsman's office independently has the ability to go to the appropriate agencies to start those types of investigations. I as a minister don't have the authority to conduct criminal investigations; nor should I, in our democracy.
It's to protect the people who are coming forward; it's also making sure that we encourage people to come forward. We need these independent bodies to give confidence to the system. Otherwise, we'll be undermining it.
I also want to state here, as I stated two weeks ago, that I was just as shocked as everyone else to learn about these allegations that are currently under investigation.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Minister.
Minister, you've said that you followed all appropriate processes. You've said that several times.
Can you tell us more about what the process is, if someone makes a complaint to one of the independent organizations?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
To make sure that this is answered properly, I will have my deputy minister or JAG answer that question.
3:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Thank you, Minister.
I can begin and will ask JAG to jump in.
The process will depend on where the complaint goes. If it comes informally to my office, I would refer it to, for example, the NIS. I would certainly bring in the civilian lawyers and the judge advocate general.
A complaint can go directly to the national investigation service from a complainant; it can go from the chain of command to the national investigation service; it can go into the chain of command and, depending what the complaint is, the chain of command can investigate it.
What we have done under the processes to improve transparency and stop interference from the chain of command into sexual misconduct—or any other kind of inappropriate behaviour—is open multiple avenues for affected members to come forward.
Once it's in the national investigation service process, no one in the chain of command or the departmental management structure, nor the minister, is aware of the investigation, for the independence reasons that have already been stated.
However, there is a very transparent process to ensure that complaints can come forward, and they can be dealt with through a variety of options. As stated earlier as well, the ombudsman can certainly investigate, again depending upon the nature.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much.
We will move on to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, s'il vous plaît.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Minister, on January 14, you wrote this in social media:
Thank you, General Vance, for your four years of service and dedication to Canada. Your work over the past five years has been important in protecting the health and safety of Canadians. We owe a great deal to you and your family and you have our gratitude.
Were you aware of the allegations on January 14?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, as I stated, I was just as shocked as everyone else when learning of the allegations two weeks ago. That's all I can say there.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
From the beginning, we haven't been able to get many answers, because an investigation is underway. I understand the situation, but I think we were entitled to some answers.
This means that once the investigation is complete, you will be able to tell us exactly when you became aware of the allegations. At this time, we do not know, due to the ongoing investigation. However, once it is completed, you will be able to tell us all of this.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I know the complete desire for all of us to have answers and want answers.
As I stated, it's so important for me to make sure that what I say always protects the integrity of the investigation. When it comes to conversations, what the ombudsman—
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
We always get the same response, Madam Chair. The question is, however, very easy to understand.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
When the investigation is complete, will the minister provide answers to our questions?