National Defence Committee on Feb. 19th, 2021

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Minister, let's make a link. As minister, Vice-Admiral Mark Norman at the time was suspended based upon some unproven allegations about him. The government moved very quickly to suspend him, yet here we are. General Vance stayed in position for three years without any suspension or investigation. Why did that happen?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I stated, the discussions with the ombudsman are always kept confidential so that anybody can feel confident to bring anything forward, and I can assure this committee, all parliamentarians and all Canadians that any allegations that were brought to me were always taken to the appropriate authorities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We go on to Mr. Spengemann, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

Minister, thank you for your time this afternoon and for your opening statement.

You'll recall from past appearances before this committee that, like yourself, this committee has been very engaged in questions of gender equality, equity, diversity and inclusion since our government took office in 2015.

In your opening remarks, I very much appreciated that you referenced trust. You made reference to it in a number of different contexts, and this is about trust on the battlefield, trust in theatres of deployment, trust in the hallways of defence headquarters in Ottawa and trust anywhere else in between.

Minister, in light of recent circumstances, what do we need to do to restore the trust of our Canadian Forces members, particularly female members, and beyond that, how do we work together, not only to restore trust, but to empower victims and witnesses of sexual misconduct within the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Given the current situation, I can understand how this trust has been undermined. One thing I can assure you is that we will be getting to the bottom of what more we can do to determine why somebody could not have the confidence to come forward. We want to create an environment for everybody to feel comfortable to come forward with any allegations, so that they can be investigated. Ultimately, we want to get to the bottom of trying to prevent these types of situations from happening.

These are some of the questions that I have currently. I know that the work Dr. Preston and some of the defence team members have done has moved the yardstick forward, but obviously we need to do more here. We will get to the bottom of determining exactly what type of recommendations are needed [Inaudible—Editor] so that we can rebuild that trust.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister, thank you very much.

I wonder if you can share with the committee your thoughts on the importance of having an independent organization that might be responsible for monitoring and advising on any necessary changes to the Canadian Forces with respect to sexual misconduct.

You mentioned independence earlier in your exchange with Mr. Bezan. I think it's very important that we maintain principles of independence and accountability, particularly when it comes to investigations.

What are your thoughts going forward on an independent organization?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Obviously, we need to do more here. I'll have the deputy minister speak to this, but I would also like to say that Dr. Preston's office is independent from the chain of command, as are the ombudsman's office and the national investigation service when it comes to investigations.

Here, we need to do more. We need to make sure of what more independence we need to create. These are the questions that I also have myself. I'll have the deputy minister take this question.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[Jody Thomas, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Madam Chair.

There are a number of things that we could look at in terms of independence. The sexual misconduct response centre reports to the deputy minister but is independent of the chain of command. It is an avenue for members of the armed forces to go to discuss sexual misconduct.

The ombudsman is independent. The national investigation service is independent of the chain of command. There are other avenues for reporting misconduct. Certainly we have our ADM review services, which is responsible for disclosures in the Canadian Armed Forces. There is, for civilian members, the public service disclosure process as well.

What we need to do is not create more bodies, but look at the barriers to reporting and the lack of confidence in the system within the chain of command right now by members who don't feel that their concerns will be acted upon or who have a fear of reprisal. I think those are the two things we really have to look at in the department right now.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you so much, Deputy Minister.

Minister, I wonder if I could return to you for my final two questions. I wonder if you could share with the committee the actions that you've taken since assuming your role to eliminate sexual misconduct. More importantly, perhaps, could you speak to the measures that are in place to assess the progress and effectiveness of these actions?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you very much.

A lot of action has been taken. Dr. Preston's team and many members of the defence team have worked very hard to break down those barriers.

In terms of the work that we need in terms of legislation, Bill C-77 was passed. Now our JAG is working very diligently with the tiger team to get the legislation and the processes in place to be able to put those support mechanisms in.

We have a lot more work to do here. As I stated, our mission here is to make sure that we can actually prevent these types of situations from happening and to make sure that we give confidence to the people that they can come forward.

We're going to be looking at the current systems we have in place and at what other barriers we need to break down.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister, thank you very much.

I'm almost out of time. In the context of what you said, the transparency and public visibility of the mechanisms that we have to assess progress would be fundamental in restoring and creating trust.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely. I think this is something that we have been doing. We have been making sure that we are very transparent with the work that we do.

It pains me right now that we had members who felt that they could not come forward. This is something that pains the senior members of the defence team. We do need to do more and we will do more.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much for your candid comments, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We'll go on to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, please.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being with us this afternoon on this beautiful Friday.

Minister, we understand that you will not tell us exactly when you were officially made aware of these allegations, but we understand that you were made aware of them.

At the time you were briefed on the situation, did you discuss it with General Vance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Obviously, there's an investigation currently going on, and it's extremely important that we protect the integrity of this investigation. But what I will say, as I said in my statement, if I—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

I imagine that, logically, you then notified the Prime Minister when you found out. What did he do when he found out?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, Madam Chair, there's currently an investigation going on. I am not, nor is the Prime Minister, the investigative body. Every allegation needs to be taken extremely seriously and taken to the appropriate authorities. But I will say, as I stated in my statement, I was shocked, just as much as everybody else, to learn about the allegations that everybody learned about two weeks ago.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Perfect, I understand all that. Forgive me for rushing you a bit, Minister, but I don't have much time, and I don't see how the investigation could be compromised if you tell us what the Prime Minister did when he became aware of the allegations.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, all the information was given to the appropriate authorities for the investigation. That's what's always needed to make sure that any complaint is looked at thoroughly so that it can be determined what actions need to be taken. Neither I nor the Prime Minister should now be interfering in any type of investigation.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Fantastic. In that case, my next question will be on a topic that I can't imagine will be related to the investigation.

When you found out, what did you do to assist the alleged victims who remained General Vance's subordinates?

I'm sure I'll get an answer this time.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, Madam Chair, about the allegations that we learned about two weeks ago, I was just as shocked as everyone else. Any time during my tenure as Minister of National Defence, if anything was ever brought to me, I always made sure that it was quickly sent to the appropriate agency for thorough investigation. That's one thing I can assure you. Right now we do have an investigation that's currently going on, and we need to protect the integrity of it so that it can follow the appropriate process.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I understand. Because an investigation is ongoing, you won't tell us what you've done to help the victims. That's fine.

When your government was attacking the reputation of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, our friend Justin Trudeau said that his case would surely end up in court. In the end, Mr. Norman had done nothing wrong, by the way.

Were you aware of the allegations against General Vance, at that time?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated previously, when it comes to any types allegations, once it's out, you cannot comment once the investigation starts, and I'm not going to undermine the investigation. We owe it to the women who have come forward to make sure that the appropriate process takes its course, and it's so important for all of us to be able to make sure that we protect the integrity.