Yes, please.
Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you, Madam Chair.
If there is no complaint launched, I think it very much depends on the context of the information, how it is brought about, what it is about. It's a difficult question to answer. I think I would say that we all are motivated and responsive to these things in the context of the government's approach, the policies and procedures that exist, and our efforts to ensure safe and healthy workplaces for all employees.
We do have to look into situations where there are concerns raised about the behaviour or conduct of a GIC appointee. It is a difficult question to answer because a lot depends on where that information is coming from. However, I would say that we do take concerns seriously. We do want to make sure that workplaces are safe and harassment free. As my colleague has spoken about, there's zero tolerance in terms of behaviour that is not conducive to that. Part of the terms and conditions for Governor in Council appointees and the Prime Minister 's guidance in open and accountable government requires GIC appointees to act in ethical, honest and respectful ways in carrying out their responsibilities.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
As I don't have much time, I will be brief.
You advise people who hold important positions in the government. What advice would you give them on dealing with allegations of sexual misconduct concerning a high-ranking individual in the future?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, I will start answering, and then my colleague could add comments.
As we said, we want to establish a climate of zero tolerance and openness. We want to further encourage people to file complaints and thereby avoid remaining at the allegation stage. We hope that all the new approaches and culture changes we are implementing will enable people in the future to take steps if they are subject to misconduct or sexual harassment.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Honestly, I was deputy minister for a number of years and, in my own organization, we had to deal with various cases where actions had to be taken.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Is it possible that this was done in the case we are discussing today?
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
I could not answer regarding this specific case.
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
I cannot speculate on that either.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
In practice, could the Privy Council Office contact a high-ranking staff officer to validate the information with them?
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
I will let Ms. Sherman answer, but I would say that the Privy Council Office has conversations with all deputy ministers and individuals appointed by the Governor in Council.
I will let my colleague complete my answer.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
No, that's not necessary. You have sort of answered my question.
Just quickly....
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Ladies, thank you very much for joining us today. This has been very informative.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I would like to ask a very specific question about cases of sexual misconduct.
In the case of General Vance, we have had both media reports and comments from the general himself that he was twice—before he was appointed chief of the defence staff—accused of sexual misconduct and, on at least one occasion, was investigated by the Canadian military.
Would that material be maintained in the personnel file of a GIC appointee? I am not asking you to confirm it in this case, but if that's the case—and General Vance has confirmed it—would that material be maintained in a personnel file that would be accessible to the PCO?
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, if I may, I will let my colleague answer, as this question is really related to her area of expertise.
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would make a distinction here. An investigation by the military would not be part of our file. I think it is important.... As I said, the CDS is a bit of a unique function in that the CDS is part of the military and a Governor in Council appointee, but we would not have military files in our records.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Even though this investigation was done either just before or after he had been appointed chief of the defence staff?
4:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
The actual investigative report would not be something that we would have. Any information about an individual that is related to that individual's appointment would be personal information that would be protected as such.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I think what makes this all so unique is that it's not just the chief of the defence staff but it's sexual misconduct, and we all know from looking at it that this is usually not a case of one slip-up by someone; this is a case of a revealing of attitudes toward women. This is why, when we have a pattern of allegations—whether they are proven allegations—it brings into question the ability of someone to meet the highest standards of behaviour in their job as chief of the defence staff. It would be of concern to me if you didn't keep that kind of information about people who were occupying the highest offices.
However, I want to know whether ministers could access whatever files you do have. If a minister had concerns about a GIC appointee's performance, can that minister ask you to see what's in that appointee's file?
