Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The performance review process is managed by PCO in support of and as part of our responsibilities in managing the Governor in Council community, which, as I mentioned, is very broad. It does have some general parameters for the process that is used. In terms of chief executive officers of Crown corporations and tribunals, they are not usually part of a performance process, given their independence. They have a different pay structure—
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
What would be applied in the CDS? Would that—
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Deputy ministers are another category.
The chief of the defence staff is a bit unique. He is a Governor in Council appointee and therefore is subject to the same pay at risk schedule. The recommendations are brought forward based on his objectives, his self-evaluation and some due diligence around performance.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Would that due diligence look back from March 2018 until the raise was issued in May of 2019?
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
It would cover the year. We go on fiscal years, so something that took effect on April 1 would be in respect of the previous year.
Those are recommendations. We support the recommendations that come forward to the Governor in Council. It is the Governor in Council that makes decisions on the pay at risk for all Governor in Council appointees.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Madam Chair, according to media reports on February 5, a spokesperson for the PCO acknowledged the fact there was a complaint made about General Vance in March 2018, yet with respect to your question, they say, “no information was provided to PCO which would have enabled further action to have been taken.”
Again, we come back to what the PCO knew and why didn't they act compared to when there was an allegation made against the former Governor General, which resulted in a full investigation and, ultimately, her resignation.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to be very specific here. You're asking me about allegations. I believe the information that PCO did provide in terms of the response to media inquiries was that we did not have information that enabled any action to be taken. That's the situation.
When we are speaking about allegations—and when I'm using the word “allegations”, I am talking about formal complaints—there is going to be a difference in how a formal complaint is managed, as we have described here, versus other information that may be rumours or concerns.
My colleague did explain that every case is unique and circumstances differ from one to the other and it is difficult to compare. The one other point I would make is that the process that was used in respect to the office of the secretary to the Governor General was a fact-finding review. It was about the workplace.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
If it was a fact-finding review, why wouldn't we do a fact-finding review when allegations were first presented on General Vance? Why is the information being dealt with here so differently, especially when you're talking about sexual misconduct?
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you.
It is very difficult, and I would counsel not to compare situations from one organization to another.
As my colleague has mentioned, there were a number of people who had come forward to the media, feeling that recourse mechanisms were not working for them. There was a great similarity between some of those concerns and some of the results from the public service employees survey, and therefore there was a recognition that more information was needed.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I have a final question, Madam Chair.
It's on the appointment process of the chief of the defence staff. He's Governor in Council, but he's also one of the highest security clearance members of the armed forces and the civil service. Who does that Governor in Council appointment report to? Wouldn't it be the Minister of National Defence? Is it to the Prime Minister directly?
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, do you want me to describe the process or do you want us to answer this question specifically?
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Ms. Tremblay, who does the CDS report to? It's a general question about all CDSs.
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
I will ask Ms. Sherman to answer this specific question.
4:45 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Okay, thank you.
The CDS is appointed under the provisions of the National Defence Act by the Governor in Council. He does report to the minister in the context of his responsibilities, but he, as you know, has the management of the forces under his—
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Sherman, what is the complaint process for a Governor in Council appointment? Is the process different?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, Mr. Robillard's question is specifically for Ms. Sherman, so I will ask her to answer.
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
The process is the same as for the public service in the sense that it is a process that does involve procedural fairness and independent investigations. When people bring complaints forward, they are evaluated in terms of whether or not they would meet, for example, the test if it's an issue of harassment. If there are grounds for that, then an investigation is undertaken, and they do follow the same process. The Treasury Board process is the guide by which we and relevant departments would conduct an investigation on it for a Governor in Council appointee.
Hopefully that answers your question.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Yes.
Ms. Sherman or Ms. Tremblay, what other recourse can be used if no official complaint is filed?
4:50 p.m.
Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Madam Chair, can Ms. Sherman answer?
