National Defence Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 16 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2020. Committee members are attending in person or remotely using the Zoom application.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

We're all experienced at this. We know how this all works, so I'm going to move this ahead. I will quickly remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair. When speaking, especially those who do not have a headset this morning, and answering questions, please speak very slowly and clearly. This will give our interpreters what they need in order to interpret what you're saying. Written statements are fine, because the interpreters were able to review them in advance, but when answering questions, if you're not wearing a headset, please slow down and speak clearly.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 9, 2021, the committee is resuming its study of addressing sexual misconduct issues in the Canadian Armed Forces, including the allegations against former chief of the defence staff Jonathan Vance.

With us today, by video conference, for the first hour and 15 minutes, we have the Honourable Marie Deschamps, former justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, who will join us shortly, and retired Colonel Michel Drapeau.

From the Department of National Defence, we have Brigadier-General Andrew Atherton, director general of professional military conduct, and Dr. Denise Preston, executive director of the sexual misconduct response centre.

Up to six minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

I welcome all of you. Thank you all for coming to the committee. We understand how valuable your time is and we appreciate that you are willing to spend some of it with us today.

I invite Dr. Denise Preston to begin with an opening statement of up to six minutes.

[Dr. Denise Preston, Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence]

Good morning, Madam Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation to join you today.

My name is Dr. Denise Preston. I'm a forensic and clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience dealing with harmful and criminal behaviour. I've been the executive director of the sexual misconduct response centre, or SMRC, since May 2017.

As many of you know from my past appearances, I report directly to the deputy minister of National Defence. As such, I am independent of the chain of command and do not speak on behalf of Operation Honour or the Canadian Armed Forces; however, my team and I work closely with the CAF to ensure we meet the needs of CAF members and the organization.

SMRC's mandate consists of three broad pillars: to provide support services to CAF members who are affected by sexual misconduct; to provide expert advice on all aspects of sexual misconduct in the CAF, including policy, prevention, reporting and research; and to monitor CAF's progress in addressing sexual misconduct. It's important to note that the counsellors who provide support are civilians who do not have the duty to report. As such, calls are confidential, and we do not require identifying information in order to provide assistance.

As part of the final settlement agreement related to sexual misconduct, SMRC is leading on the development of a restorative engagement program that will provide opportunities for class members to share their experiences of sexual misconduct with senior defence representatives. The goals of the program are to allow class members to be heard and acknowledged, to begin to restore relationships between class members and the CAF and to contribute to culture change.

SMRC has evolved significantly in the five years since its inception. Demand for our services and expertise has increased year after year, and we have helped shape Operation Honour policies and programs. Despite the work that has been done, there is undeniably more to do. Meaningful culture change is a top priority, because the sexualized culture observed by Madam Deschamps persists.

While reporting of sexual misconduct is an institutional priority, it is also a very personal decision. We cannot expect reporting to increase significantly when many barriers to reporting remain. The duty to report has been repeatedly identified as a significant barrier, because affected members lose autonomy over whether, when and how to report their experiences, and it can silence them from speaking to potential sources of support in the Canadian Armed Forces[. Retaliation and reprisal in response to reporting are frequently identified as barriers, and these are not well documented or addressed.

Finally, there's a need to collect analysis and reporting on sexual misconduct to enable better organizational understanding, response and accountability. SMRC will continue to press on these and other priorities going forward.

Thank you again for this opportunity. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much, Dr. Preston.

I'd like to invite General Atherton, please, for his opening statement.

[Brigadier-General Andrew Atherton, Director General of Professional Military Conduct, Department of National Defence]

Good morning, Madam Chair and committee members. Thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss Operation Honour and our efforts to provide a safe and respectful environment for all.

I am the Director General of Professional Military Conduct. My organization leads the strategic level planning and coordination for the Canadian Armed Forces’ efforts to address sexual misconduct.

Our group engages with internal and external groups, such as subject matter experts, academics and advocacy groups, to discuss our approach, and solicit input, feedback and advice.

While Operation Honour remains very much a work in progress, the CAF has taken significant steps to address all forms of sexual misconduct in support of this crucial mission. We have implemented important foundational work in the areas of policy, procedures, training and education, and support for those affected. We acknowledge that there is much more work to do and I want to assure you that we are continually striving to enhance our approach.

Any form of sexual misconduct is unacceptable. It harms our people, erodes team cohesion and jeopardizes our operational effectiveness. All CAF members have a duty to report all incidents to the chain of command. However, depending on the nature of the incident, it may be reported to the military police, Canadian Forces national investigation service, civilian police or the integrated conflict and complaint management service.

We acknowledge that reporting can be the source of significant stress for affected persons. When people come forward, we must ensure that they are heard, supported and that any allegations are referred to the appropriate authorities. For this reason, there are a number of options for individuals to seek care and support without submitting a formal report through to the chain of command, most notably through the sexual misconduct response centre, which operates independently from the CAF.

Our first concern is always with the well-being of our members. We never want the stress of reporting to prevent someone from getting the care and support that they need. That said, we know we need to do everything we can to reduce the barriers to reporting so that anyone who experiences or witnesses sexual misconduct feels safe and supported to come forward.

In her 2015 report on sexual misconduct and sexual harassment in the CAF, former Supreme Court justice, the Honourable Marie Deschamps made it clear that culture change is key to addressing sexual misconduct within our ranks. She was absolutely right.

Most recently, in the fall of 2020, we released a culture change strategy to guide and coordinate Operation Honour efforts across the CAF. The Path to Dignity and Respect includes a framework for addressing sexual misconduct through culture change, an implementation plan and a performance measurement framework.

This strategy is informed by, and very sensitive to, the experience of those who have been affected by sexual misconduct within the CAF. It also draws on research, evidence and recommendations from subject matter experts and stakeholders.

The strategy establishes a comprehensive, long-term approach for preventing and addressing sexual misconduct targeting culture. It is a significant step in the right direction but it is by no means the final version. We will continue to engage with experts, stakeholders and those who have been affected, to discuss the strategy, solicit feedback and refine our approach.

We know we have much more to do, and we will. In pursuit of the total culture change of which the minister has spoken, we know that we have much more to do, and we will. We will not stop until all CAF members can deliver operational excellence with the full support of an institution that fosters mutual trust, respect and dignity.

Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. I look forward to taking your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much, General Atherton.

We'll go now to retired Colonel Michel Drapeau, s'il vous plaît.

[Colonel, Retired) Michel Drapeau (Professor, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Common Law, As an Individual]

Madam Chair, let me open by thanking members of the committee for giving me the honour to appear before the committee on a matter that is of interest to me as a former soldier and as an author and lawyer specializing in military law matters.

I have followed the discussion that has taken place in the public domain about the recent allegations against the former chief of the defence staff, who is also a Governor in Council appointment. Please know that I have also listened to the testimonies presented to your committee last Friday by the minister and deputy minister.

In my opening remarks, I will make three separate comments.

First, I understand that in 2018, the ombudsman received allegations of misconduct against the then chief of the defence staff. Acting in strict accord with the 2001 ministerial directives governing his role and function, the ombudsman reported these allegations to the Minister of National Defence because he lacked the authority to investigate these allegations. From that point onwards, the matter rested with the minister, who in my opinion had a duty to investigate.

In fact, the National Defence Act already provides for such an opportunity. I am referring here to section 45 of the National Defence Act, which reads as follows:

The Minister, and such other authorities as the Minister may prescribe or appoint for that purpose, may, where it is expedient that the Minister or any such other authority should be informed on any matter connected with the government, discipline, administration or functions of the Canadian Forces or affecting any officer or non-commissioned member, convene a board of inquiry for the purpose of investigating and reporting on that matter.

Furthermore, article 21.081 of the Queen's regulations and orders also empowers the minister to appoint a military judge as a board of inquiry. Under the circumstances, this is something that could have been done.

Let me now turn to my second point.

Over the past two decades, the Canadian Forces have received several warnings about the endemic sexual misconduct crisis within its ranks. Worse yet, in her 2016 report, Justice Marie Deschamps concluded that a high percentage of sexual harassment and sexual assault cases went unreported because victims were deeply suspicious that the Canadian Forces were not taking their complaints seriously and they feared repercussions that could harm their career advancement.

In her report, Justice Deschamps insisted that an independent centre for accountability for sexual misconduct be created outside the Canadian Forces. In response, the centre was placed under the control of the Department of National Defence and located at that department's headquarters in Ottawa. In my view, this is certainly not the kind of independence envisioned and desired by victims of sexual misconduct.

Let's be clear, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces are both stakeholders in this crisis. They work together on a daily basis, are interdependent and share the same headquarters at National Defence. For a victim of sexual harassment or assault, these two organizations are virtually identical, and neither can be considered external or independent.

My third point refers to the 1997 report of the commission of inquiry into the Somalia deployment, in which Justice Gilles Létourneau wrote:

Members of the armed forces who feel the need to initiate a complaint often feel they face two unpalatable choices—either to suffer in silence or to buck the system with all the perils such action entails. In my view, Canadians in uniform do require and deserve to have a dedicated and protected channel of communication to the Minister's office.

As a central piece of his report, Justice Létourneau went on to recommend the creation of a civilian inspector general, directly responsible to Parliament, as an essential part of the mechanism to oversee and control the Canadian Armed Forces. The inspector general would be appointed by the Governor in Council and be made accountable to Parliament, with broad authority to inspect, investigate and report on all aspects of national defence and the armed forces.

Most importantly, Justice Létourneau emphasized that any member of the Canadian Armed Forces and any public servant in DND would be permitted to approach the inspector general directly for whatever reason and without first seeking prior approval of the chain of command.

To conclude, things would have had a very different outcome in 2018 had an inspector of the armed forces been in existence, because this would have provided potential and actual complainants access to a trusted and independent office capable and skilled to investigate any allegations of misconduct. It would have provided the minister, DND, PCO and Parliament the assurance that any such complaint would have been properly investigated. In my considered opinion, the idea of such an appointment is as valid today as it was back in 1997.

This completes my opening remarks.

Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I didn't say anything until now because our interpreter, who is doing an outstanding job, had a copy of the witness's presentation. It was therefore possible for her to interpret Mr. Drapeau's testimony. On the other hand, I am told that, if she had not had the text, she would not have been able to interpret.

I'll let you know right away that we may run into some problems. I feel he's a very interesting witness, and I hope we can resolve the situation before we ask him any questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I agree with you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. It was a question we asked the interpreters. They said that if the witnesses were to speak slowly and clearly when answering questions, they would be willing to give it a try.

We will allow Madam Deschamps to make her statement, and then we will try with questions. The interpreters also said that they have Madam Deschamps' statement.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

On that point of order, Madam Chair, I would ask that when Colonel Drapeau is speaking he lean in towards the microphone on his computer. I think his voice would probably be picked up a lot better. I think the time he moved back is when his voice volume dropped.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Madam Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Madam Chair, it's my understanding that the interpreters were provided with the speaking notes. It's not uncustomary for members of the committee to have the introductory remarks in hand. Is there a reason the committee members were not provided with the opening remarks?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

They were not provided in both languages.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We will carry on. The plan is to allow Madam Deschamps to speak. Then we will—

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Sorry, but I have had my hand raised.

I believe it's possible for witnesses to phone in to this meeting. I would suggest the technicians look at having witnesses who do not have a headset leave the Zoom meeting and phone back into the meeting, if that is possible. That would allow questions to go ahead even though we would lose the visual.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Actually, he doesn't need to leave the Zoom call. He can just phone from his phone, and then keep his computer muted. Then Colonel Drapeau would be able to talk through the telephone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Let us give this a try.

The interpreters felt that if we were respectful of them and spoke slowly and clearly, they would be able to do this. We will ask the witnesses who do not have headsets to keep this in mind, especially when answering questions. Also, we will reach out as we're going through this to give them the option of a call-in. Good idea.

Thank you.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Madam Chair, clearly during the testimony it was sometimes not even audible in the language it was being given in. I really believe that in the interest of time, we cannot afford to waste time trying something when we have an alternative that will work.

With respect, Madam Chair, I would ask that we proceed to connecting witnesses without a headset by telephone to this meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Once Madam Deschamps has made her statement.... That gives us about five minutes for the interpreters to become comfortable and for us to make those arrangements.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I would like to call upon the Honourable Marie Deschamps, former justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, to make your opening statement.

Please go ahead, Madam.