National Defence Committee on Feb. 26th, 2021

[Dr. Stéfanie von Hlatky]

First and foremost, trust must be restored. Without that trust, there will always be issues with reporting.

As I said in my remarks, data has been gathered over the past five years. Data is important, but little blind spots have also been revealed.

Another important issue to underscore is that of power abuse and power asymmetries among individuals, which are exacerbated through the fairly rigid hierarchy within the Canadian Armed Forces. As a researcher, I feel that the other priority, the other issue, must be considered in depth.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

As far as trust goes, that may perhaps go through the Minister of National Defence....

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

Next is Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Given that I was the one who made the request that we move on to some next steps here, especially seeing the importance of the rebuilding trust question, I would like to thank the witnesses today, and I'll give up my time so we can move on that discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison.

On behalf of all of the members of the committee I learned a lot today.

I've done a lot of reading on the topic and I learned a lot. I'm very grateful that you took time out of your very busy schedules to join us here today. You gave us a lot to think about. Hopefully, we'll be able to turn that into something that will make a difference.

We'll keep in touch. Maybe we'll need your help again some time in the future.

I thank all the witnesses.

All the very best to all of you.

Members, the former ombudsman has requested the presence of his legal counsel on Wednesday. It's not an extraordinary request but it does require the permission of the committee.

Is there anyone who is not in favour of allowing him to bring his legal counsel?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Okay.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Given that the last time we discussed this, it was determined that he would have parliamentary privilege, what would be the course of action if his lawyer advised him not to answer a question? If he's released from any response by the government, why would he need his lawyer there?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

As I said, it's not an extraordinary request.

If he does not answer a question and you want the answer to that question, I think the committee will repeat the question. If he doesn't answer and the committee has asked for an answer, then it has to go to the House. That's where it goes. That's the next step.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right? There are no objections to our witness bringing his legal counsel? Okay. That's good. Thanks.

We have 10 minutes left.

Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

Today was the first time I learned that we are proposing a special meeting next week, and it would be helpful for all of us.... I know the official notice hasn't gone out and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

It hasn't gone out because it is not confirmed, but I can tell you now that he has agreed to appear.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Okay. There is no implied criticism there. I know we are moving quickly, but given that's the case, and the military ombudsman will be appearing, I have one comment and one question.

As he reports to the Minister of National Defence, I guess we'll be asking him if he has been released from any restrictions on his testimony, because he's not an officer of Parliament, and there's a tendency to forget that. He is someone who reports to the Minister of National Defence. I'm not sure—and maybe it's our first question for him—that we're being assured that if he chooses to answer or not answer questions, that's on the basis of his own personal legal advice and not on the instructions from the department.

The second question is that, now that we're having him appear before us, I believe we should offer the minister an opportunity to return to the committee after that testimony, make any further statements he wishes to make and also make any clarifications he'd like to make on the current situation with the second chief of the defence staff under investigation.

If there's a desire to do so, I could do that by a formal motion, but I would like to see us agree that we extend that invitation to the minister as a courtesy to allow him to reply after we hear that testimony. I would hope that there would be agreement to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Who would like to talk to this?

Mr. Robillard, go ahead.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Yes. I wish to know this. Aren't we supposed to have only the one person coming as a witness?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

A francophone is speaking in English, and the interpreter cannot translate their comments. It's really the first time I see this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

You are—

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

So I will ask my question in French.

We were supposed to hear from one individual. We have already met with the minister, but there is talk of meeting with him again, along with an expert. Is that correct?

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, could you ask him to move his microphone—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan was first, please.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I couldn't hear Monsieur Robillard. Could he move his microphone closer so we can hear?

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I wouldn't want to take too much time.

I'm wondering why witnesses are being added for Wednesday even though we were supposed to have a single witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Fine.

Mr. Bezan, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair, just to answer Mr. Robillard's question, this issue continues to escalate within the Canadian Armed Forces. I believe that the minister needs now to respond to what has happened with the chief of the defence staff. I also think it's only fair, as Mr. Garrison pointed out, that he be allowed to respond to the testimony that we're going to get from Mr. Walbourne next week, and because this is undermining the morale of the Canadian Armed Forces, I think each and every one of us should be completely upset with what has transpired over here in the past five or six weeks.

Canadians deserve answers. We need to re-establish the confidence and trust of our men and women who serve in uniform and the only way we can do that is by bringing about some transparency here, which right now the government has been lacking.

I'm also of the opinion that we need to call in some of our top military commanders, navy, air force, CJOC, army, NATO, NORAD, our top commanding officers, to come forward to find out what they know and to see if they've ever been involved in any sexual misconduct. We're potentially looking at having to replace our current CDS.

I do believe that this is probably some of the most important work that we're going to do as a committee this Parliament. I think it's also becoming clear that this is an issue that Canadians are getting more and more concerned about and we have to restore trust, and the best way that we can do it as parliamentarians is by expanding the scope of this study and dive in even deeper.