Evidence of meeting #17 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was caf.
A video is available from Parliament.
Associate Professor and Director, Centre for International and Defence Policy, Queen's University, As an Individual
I have read the same articles as you in the media.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Yes, but you surely have more expertise than I do, since you are a professor. I am not.
Mr. Okros, can you answer my question?
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
Again, I have seen in the media significant speculation over information that people are assuming; I don't know what the factual information is. I do appreciate the principles of maintaining privacy for individuals, and the principles of not confounding an investigation, because when information can be disclosed in the public domain before an investigation is completed it can undermine the capacity to see it through to a proper justice at the end of it.
Again, I just don't have the information to be able to answer the question at this stage.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I'm sorry about this, but I feel that I will get the same answer from Mr. English.
As you know, there is a difference between what happened in Mr. Vance's case and in Mr. McDonald's case. Mr. McDonald decided to step down from his duties.
Mr. Okros, do you think that was the right decision?
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
Again, I don't have the factual information to make a decision, and it's not my area of expertise.
Liberal
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I will note that what we have is investigations into incidents. We're not having investigations into the way incidents have been handled. We're probably going to be just as blindfolded at the end if the only focus is on the investigation of individual conduct. While I do, of course, respect the need for that to proceed independently and fairly, there is the question of how the incidents were handled.
Because we have such little time, and I have particularly very little time, I want to ask a question to Dr. von Hlatky.
I'm not asking you to judge the qualifications of any particular person, although I will have to say that seeing General Whitecross go into retirement rather than into a senior leadership position seems like a missed opportunity to me.
What difference would it make in the Canadian military if we saw a woman commanding one of the forces or being the chief of the defence staff?
Associate Professor and Director, Centre for International and Defence Policy, Queen's University, As an Individual
I suppose your question prompts me to think that if Whitecross hadn't retired she would have the perfect qualifications right now. You remember who was speaking five years ago and taking the microphone and speaking to these issues, and it was General Whitecross. She's moved on in terms of her professional trajectory to Rome as a commandant of the NATO Defense College. There could have been an opportunity there. She was at the appropriate rank level. When you have a woman holding the highest position of leadership within an organization, it has transformative potential.
While I don't want to speculate about who might be tapped on the shoulder next or what the selection process is going to look like into the future to replace the CDS, if that's the decision that's made, I do think that it's a very positive step for an organization to have a woman at the highest levels because it has a transformative potential for the culture, and potentially it can bring a new model of leadership, which can then inspire further change.
I'll leave my comments at that.
Liberal
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.
We've talked about the defence minister and how he has handled these allegations over the past couple of years. We don't know all the details, but I think one of the things for sure we know is that he probably could have acted quicker in many cases. Because he hasn't, I think that's created a problem within CAF, especially for female members.
Could all the witnesses talk a little bit about how we retain female members in the armed forces so they don't want to leave early? Also, how do we recruit new females to join the armed forces?
I think we have two big problems here. Can you enlighten us on how we could do that? I know we talked a second ago about having a female CDS, but that's not going to happen right away. What other things can we do to make this a better environment for our female CAF personnel?
Associate Professor and Director, Centre for International and Defence Policy, Queen's University, As an Individual
I would certainly welcome this opportunity to review how we can better focus on the unique needs and experiences of women in the Canadian Armed Forces. If it takes a crisis to precipitate more attention to this issue, then so be it.
In general, I think it's been the big push behind integrating a gender-based analysis plus tool into the way that the Government of Canada develops its policies, and here, this certainly applies to the Canadian Armed Forces. Because the experiences of women are different from men—and we pointed to some cultural factors for why that is—there are other reasons, as well, for why they may have different needs and different experiences.
At every career stage, once again, whether it's at the moment of recruitment or at the moment of release and the transition from being in the military to reintegrating in civilian life, women face unique challenges. If we can use this opportunity as a way to further study what these unique challenges and needs are, then I definitely think this would be a good step in that direction.
At the same time, I don't think we should assume that what's going on right now—what's playing out in the media—is a central decision-making factor for a woman, either in terms of considering her career options in the military or whether she's considering joining the Canadian Armed Forces. There are a host of motives and reasons for why women make decisions about their careers, and that may have an impact or it may not. Certainly, it's just one consideration among many.
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
I'll start by saying that I'm probably the last person to speak on behalf of women serving in the Canadian Armed Forces, and it's the point I'd like to make. Inclusion strategies, when we are looking at diverse peoples, use the phrase “nothing about us without us”. If we apply the women, peace and security agenda principles, one of the things it should lead to is the recognition that women need to be empowered to represent themselves, and that includes with agency, with voice.
I would offer, both in terms of what the CAF does internally and potentially for the deliberations of this committee, that it is important to ensure that the voices and perspectives of those we wish to speak for are being heard and being considered. In the long run, creating mechanisms of voice so that individuals and subgroups within the military can be heard effectively would be a good strategy.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
I think what we're seeing here is that there are some cases where an institution cannot monitor itself properly and it needs outside independent review.
We can talk about Operation Honour. It probably needed some outside oversight for accountability.
Can you talk about any international best practices from countries in NATO or our Five Eyes partners that have some monitoring systems so they can monitor a program? As you said, Operation Honour doesn't exist anymore per se, but what about another program like that? Are there any ideas on outside monitoring or independent monitoring?
I ask that to anybody.
Liberal
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Madam Chair, thank you very much.
I, too, would like to thank our witnesses for their expertise, their service and their presence here this afternoon.
I'd like to just briefly go back to the minister's statements before this committee just about a week ago and cite some of the statements that he made, which I think are strong and constructive. The minister said, “We need a complete and total culture change. Our actions to root out this insidious behaviour must match our words...the time for patience is over. Change will not and cannot happen on its own.”
This, in my mind, really engages us with a fundamental connection with the concept of democratic control of the armed forces and with what we need to do to accelerate change and to really treat this as a watershed moment, if that's the right term.
Professor von Hlatky, your fourth point of your opening remarks is very pointed on that. You said that, and I'm paraphrasing slightly, if a person does not engage in sexual misconduct, that does not mean that person performs his or her duty with honour. You say that the standard of performance is much higher than that if you want to get to zero tolerance.
There was very helpful testimony this afternoon across party lines and across witnesses with respect to there being a constructive element to culture but also a toxic, negative element to culture. We also have to keep in mind that we have a system. The Canadian Forces is a system of recruitment, promotion, service and discharge. That system is in place, and it can yield positive outcomes, but also, with the wrong cultural direction, negative outcomes.
Bear in mind that even in 2016 there was a StatsCan report that came out that said, I think, 27.3% of women surveyed across the branches of the service elements and military contractors reported sexual assault—not just sexual misconduct but assault. This is really a moment where we need to think differently.
What are the disruptors that can help us to change the culture in a much more accelerated way? I'm thinking about things like rewarding people, even for broader actions like being gender champions, champions for women, peace and security, all the way up the promotional chain. Are there currently, in the human resources part of the system of the Canadian Forces, sufficient incentives to reward those who want to stand up and drive the agenda forward in a constructive way? If not, what kinds of elements should we build and look at?
That's to you, Professor von Hlatky, if you don't mind.
Associate Professor and Director, Centre for International and Defence Policy, Queen's University, As an Individual
First of all, you mentioned the champion for women, peace and security, and while I think this is an important leadership role, I think that the question you raised, perhaps, isn't directly connected to the mandate of the champion for women, peace and security, which really refers to a broader agenda. Certainly, talking about women's representation and participation is part of that role, but when you're talking about specific career incentives, structures and promotions, that might lie a little bit outside of the scope.
However, I think that we're not satisfied with the status quo, and one way, of course, in a system like the military would be to take a look at the incentive structure around promotions. What are the professional incentives that could be reviewed and tweaked in order to encourage and reward the kind of behaviour that we want to see, which is more support for victims and survivors and a supportive environment for those individuals to come forward? We probably need to look at peer-to-peer support systems there and also leadership conduct. I do think there is merit to looking at how promotions are made and to reviewing incentive structures around career advancements in order to create a more supportive environment.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Just really briefly, because I'm tight on time, I'm going back to the minister's comment that we need a total culture change. I think those were his words. Is tweaking enough and, if not, what could be done that is more than tweaking that really helps us to accelerate these changes?
Professor, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual
I think all three of us have indicated that, no, tweaking is not sufficient. I go back to my comment that we need to have a proper understanding of military culture, of what's working and not working and what to keep and what to change.
To paraphrase a former prime minister, I would offer that now is the time to commit sociology. I would offer the work by Raewyn Connell that explains the military's masculinity and the work by Kimberlé Crenshaw that helps us understand that intersectionality is essential to bringing the right lens and the right perspective to really analyze the culture. That, then, can lead us to some identification of the changes that are made.
Thank you.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Madam Chair, can I pass on my line of questioning to Ms. Alleslev, please?
February 26th, 2021 / 2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I greatly appreciate my colleague giving me the opportunity to ask some more questions.
I would like to actually continue the line of questioning we just heard around what fundamental comprehensive change means, and what sorts of experts should we be looking to. We have history and politics professors joining us, who are very knowledgeable, in order to give us a perspective on how we arrived at this point. However, there are things like war, morality, the military profession and the role of the military in a democracy. What should that culture look like in a modern era of defence and security? These are just as important questions as understanding what we need to do immediately.
Could you give me some ideas, in your opinion, from your background, on who we should be looking to consult next on such an important topic?
