Evidence of meeting #18 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Section 14 of the departmental directive stipulates that the ombudsman shall not investigate any complaint or matter relating to a military judge, court martial or summary trial.
I may have misinterpreted that, but why did you go to see the Minister?
3:40 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I have absolutely no idea what connection you're making between the military justice system and me.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
As I understand the situation, there could well be a court martial. You and I agree that the Minister of National Defence should not be involved in that process, do we not?
3:40 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Not at all; I believed my role was to advise the minister, which I did. As to what he could have done, you say that this would have ended up in a court martial. That's a supposition. No one knows that. We don't know the degree of the penalty that would have been imposed for this. Apparently, from what I understand, the penalties are not that great, so it may not have been a court martial.
I just think this is apples and oranges.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
3:40 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Well, let me put it out there: Wouldn't you think it would be prudent that I go to the supervisor of the person in question when I have an allegation? My job as a special adviser to the minister is to do just that—advise him—and I thought this was of enough magnitude that it should have been brought to his attention. That's what I did.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much, Mr. Robillard.
We will move on to Mr. Benzen, please.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Walbourne, for being here today.
Mr. Walbourne, after March 1, 2018, you had seven meetings cancelled with the minister. In those seven meetings, were you trying to follow up on this allegation? Were you going back to follow up and see if you could get advice as to how to proceed on this matter?
3:40 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No, that wasn't the request for the meetings. That wasn't the purpose. I knew after PCO contacted me that the minister wasn't going to do anything. I had many other hot cases that required ministerial exposure and feedback. That's the reason for the meetings. The office wasn't stagnant on just one file. I mean, we deal with 2,000 complaints a year and with the systemic review. I needed to speak to the minister on multiple issues.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Besides having a major allegation against the CDS, did you receive any other allegations of sexual misconduct against any other senior military leaders?
3:40 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Did you have a sense, in your job, while Operation Honour was going on—and obviously it was there for a reason—that there was a major systemic problem in the armed forces with sexual misconduct? Were you seeing that one way or another through your office?
3:40 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Well, I think it's apparent. We see what's in the environment. As the sexual misconduct response centre was being stood up, I was still receiving these calls and complaints.
I'd have to go back to verify the numbers, but even though the sexual misconduct response centre was open, we did over 100 in the first year they were open. It dropped down to 60 in the second year, but we continued to get complaints, even with the volume that was going into the SMRC.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Basically, after you told the minister on March 1 that there was this allegation, which you had evidence of, and he had appointed General Vance to be in charge of Operation Honour, were you worried about how that was going to affect members of the CAF, given that allegations against the very person who was in charge were being investigated?
3:40 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
My worries about the sexual misconduct response centre started long before that. I thought it was ill-conceived. I thought it was improperly rolled out. I don't think it had the right mandate, policies or procedures in place when it opened its doors. There were restrictions. Certain levels were allowed inside, and then they weren't allowed. Reservists couldn't come in. Then civilians couldn't, but now they can.
My concerns go back to long before I received that allegation.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Do you find it interesting the way the charges against you were investigated and how lax they were in investigating and following up on the allegations against General Vance?
3:45 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I won't speak about General Vance, but I will tell you my feelings and sentiment about the investigation that went on against me. I wish we had time to sit and talk about unethical, nefarious and insidious behaviours, because I have a story that maybe someday will be told.
I just think it's a hard ride. If you go into this position and do the right thing.... You have to agitate at times. They say calm seas don't fill many sails. We need change. We keep talking about change. It just doesn't happen.
What happened to me, I think, was an exercise and a lesson for others. If you do the right thing, be prepared. But I just think it was a farce. It was a dog-and-pony show. Their allegations were meritless. The findings, even though they were against me, can be disproved—every one of them.
March 3rd, 2021 / 3:45 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Benzen Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Thank you.
Clearly the system is broken. You have an obligation to listen to these allegations, and yet when you take them to your superior, they are not even dealt with.
Can you talk a little bit about why you need to have independence and why this has to be changed immediately, and how that could affect the trust and the morale of all members of CAF?
3:45 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
This is a no-brainer, in my opinion. As long as that structure stays where it is—administratively reporting to the deputy, and organizationally reporting to the chief—we are never going to get those people who need to come forward to come forward. In my office, it's the same thing.
You want to talk about administrative freedom. Let's just, perchance, in a new fantasy world we could live in, say that if this SMRC were combined with the ombudsman’s office and reported to Parliament, when that type of complaint came in, it would not be going to the minister. It would be going to Parliament. If one person can't act, can we hope that 338 can?
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I would like to get a little bit of clarification.
Mr. Walbourne, in an answer to one of the previous questions, you said that it wouldn't have necessarily been a court martial type of offence. We don't actually know what it was. You said that you had brought certain evidence with you on paper when you went to speak to the minister. Was that evidence something that you would have normally been required to go to the CFNIS or to the provost marshal with? Or was this something, for instance, on the same level as what you said you usually deal with—a joke, an offensive comment, an email or something like that?
3:45 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Well, two things....
First of all, in response to whether it would be a court martial, I am not a judge advocate general. I don't know how the judicial system inside the Canadian Armed Forces works in detail, so I don't know what the outcome of any type of trial that would have considered that allegation could have been. It may have been everything.
As to the second part, I am not going to comment any further about the allegations or the details of the allegation I received. If I receive evidence against a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, depending on what the complaint is or what the evidence is, that will determine what resource we go to. If it is a sexual assault, it's taken to the military police, and we provide the evidence that was given to us; the complainant is notified that will happen prior to it happening.
If it's sexual harassment, and the complainant has given us the authority, we'll go back to the chain of command and deal with the—