National Defence Committee on March 3rd, 2021

[Gary Walbourne]

I think the minister has certain latitudes afforded to him under the National Defence Act. He could have done his own motion investigation. There are certain different things he could have done. I wasn't looking for any of that. The only ask I had of the minister was to please come back to me with some advice on how we could potentially proceed with the allegation.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Let me go back to one point.

The Minister appeared before this committee and told us how surprised he was to learn the news in the paper. He said that he found out at the same time as all other Canadians.

What do you think of that statement by the Minister?

[Gary Walbourne]

I can't put myself in the minister's shoes. I don't know what he has said or what he hasn't said. I know what happened in the meeting on March 1, 2018. I have stated that clearly here in front of committee.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Let me change the subject. You receive many complaints. There were reports on that when you were in office.

What kind of harassment is most frequent in the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Gary Walbourne]

I have been a few years out of the chair, so I will be a little rusty in my stats and categories. The biggest complaint we would get would be inappropriate behaviour—misogynistic comments, inappropriate jokes and that type of thing. We would handle that type of inappropriate behaviour at the ground level. With a formal allegation of that, there was a process we would follow involving the various chains of command across the country, depending on where the issue was. Inappropriate behaviour, misogynistic types of behaviour, inappropriate jokes and those types of things were a large part of what we would receive.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The office's 2019-2020 annual report indicates 106 cases of harassment in 2019-2020, but the data on the matter is not broken down. So we do not know the numbers and the ratio of sexual harassment cases.

Why do we not make the data public and break it down according to the harassment complaints filed in your former office?

[Gary Walbourne]

I really can't speak to the operational footprint of the ombudsman's office now. When I was in the chair, I twice annually reported those exact statistics to the department. They were posted on our website. I don't know if the practice continues to this day or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

It's time for Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I first want to thank Mr. Walbourne for being with us today. I know there was a reluctance on his part, because what he has had to say to us today is I think disturbing for all Canadians on a number of grounds.

I have always known you, Mr. Walbourne, to be frank-speaking, direct and someone who could be trusted to do his job. I want to ask you a question just to set a little context here, because I was a little disturbed by some of the earlier questions. My experience with your office was that when I referred constituents, they always received excellent service and excellent follow-up.

What was the date of the report that you did on grievance, asking for more independence? When was that report? Can you remind me, please?

[Gary Walbourne]

That was March 2017, I think. Just a quick second here.

Yes, it was March 2017.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Before that time, had there been any expressions of concern from the minister or the deputy minister about your job performance, the way you did your job or anything related to the service you were providing as ombudsman?

[Gary Walbourne]

Absolutely not.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You see where I'm going with this. It seems to me—I'll put it colloquially—mighty peculiar that only after you raised concerns about the governance and the ability of an independent ombudsman to fully investigate complaints and to do a job on behalf of those who serve in the Canadian Forces or the Department of Defence did we see what can only be described as vindictive moves against you as the ombudsman.

I know that now I'm testifying rather than you, but I think you must have been very frustrated from that time forward in your abilities to deal with the minister and the deputy minister.

How do you feel, after that report, that the working relationship continued?

[Gary Walbourne]

I'm of somewhat the same mindset that it seems mighty peculiar. As to the relationship, I'm a very straightforward guy. We have a job to do; let's get it done. I shoot from the hip. I speak frankly, openly and honestly. I think reluctantly they accepted my work, but things got difficult in terms of trying to find out what my financial delegation was one day versus the next and whether I could staff or couldn't staff. It was so bad that if I wanted to travel across the country, I had to get permission from the deputy minister, which goes against the independence of the organization. Why do they need to know where the ombudsman is going and what he's doing?

It just got to be like pushing a rock uphill.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you for that.

You've been very clear and straightforward about what happened in the meeting on March 1, 2018, and I thank you for that very forthright testimony.

Can you see any reason why the minister would not be able to be as forthright about what happened in that meeting as you've been? Are there any constraints on the minister's telling us about that meeting and his perception of that meeting?

[Gary Walbourne]

I don't think anything I've said here today is shocking. We have different renditions of our memories, but I don't think that anything I've said here is shocking. This is straight up. It is what it is.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

The minister appeared before us and said that he could not talk to us about the meeting he had with you. He wouldn't even, really, confirm that the meeting took place, let alone the content of that meeting.

Are you aware of any legal constraints on him as defence minister talking to this committee about what happened in that meeting?

[Gary Walbourne]

There are none that I am aware of.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I think you've been very clear with us. You didn't provide details about the individual complainant and you said that the minister actually refused to look at the evidence that you were going to present to him, so again, it is passing strange to me that the minister felt he couldn't comment on these.

You said that the Privy Council Office later contacted you and asked for details of the complaint. I may have missed it, but when was that contact made by the Privy Council Office? How much time passed before you heard from them?

[Gary Walbourne]

I think it was the next day.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

It was the next day, so it was very immediate.

In those conversations, when you did what I think all of us would recognize as the right thing and said that you could not, without the permission of the complainant, pass along the personal information, did the Privy Council Office ask you to contact the complainant and offer their services in dealing with the complaint, or did they simply let the matter drop?

[Gary Walbourne]

They let the matter drop.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Did they give you any assurance that they would be reporting back to the minister about their action or inaction on this file?

[Gary Walbourne]

No. I left the conversation after I told her that I was surprised she knew about that. I had asked the minister to keep it in confidence, and I told her the same thing I said to this committee, that I wasn't going to give her the name of the complainant or the details of the allegation because the complainant had asked me to respect that confidentiality, and that's exactly what I did.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

In the little time I have remaining, I want to ask, in your experience as the ombudsman, do you feel that Operation Honour, as a way of responding to sexual misconduct, was being effective and that there was confidence in the commitment of those in leadership positions to actually tackle the problem of sexual misconduct?