Evidence of meeting #18 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
As far as you know, were there any indications to the victim that the defence minister did relay the information to the CDS?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
As far as I know, no.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
When the minister refused to look at the evidence that you tried to present at that meeting on March 1, did you get the impression that he already knew?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I don't think so. I think he was taken aback that I had it. I don't know if he was surprised because I had it, or surprised because it came forward. I can't answer that.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You said that seven meetings were cancelled. What were the issues that were ignored and that would have been addressed in those seven meetings?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
There were many issues. There was compensation for retired members. There was movement on various programs and policies. There was software I had developed for the department and we were looking for some headway and a lead on. It was a smorgasbord of issues.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Were there any about inappropriate behaviour?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Minister Sajjan put General Vance in charge of Operation Honour and kept him there even after he had learned of the allegations that you brought to him. Did you fear for the well-being of the Canadian Armed Forces members and the future of Op Honour?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I feared for both at the same time. My fear was that I think we have a concept of Op Honour.... We didn't set it up right, but we have a good concept. I was afraid that the trust in it was going to be eroded further. Yes, I always have the other concern.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Would you be willing to commit here today that you would answer additional questions we may have or submit additional documentation to us on request?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Depending on what you're asking for, if it's within my power to give it to you, you're more than welcome to it, if it's within the parameters that have been placed upon me and the confidentiality I hold and the confidentiality agreement that I've signed. As long as we stay within those parameters, you can have whatever I have.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
On the minister himself, could he not have done any type of investigation on his own? Could he have asked people about it? Was there anything stopping him? After all, he was a police officer himself.
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Well, I don't know of any barriers that stop the minister. No, there are many things that I think could have been done. Throwing it to the PCO and never speaking to me again I don't think was the most adult response.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Was there anyone else you could have relayed this to and expected some type of action, other than the minister?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
No, I don't think there's anyone else you can go to. I mean, it is the chain of command. He is the person who is responsible. I couldn't think of anyone else inside of government I could have gone to.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Should the CDS, in your opinion, have been asked to step aside while an investigation...? Given that the charges or allegations were even brought to the minister, would that have been the correct course of action?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I can't say what the correct course of action should have been from the minister. All I look at is recent behaviour and what has happened—sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
On Op Honour, insofar as you're concerned, is it pretty well destined to failure? Or are there any hopes that something positive can continue out of it?
4:25 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Again, I'll go back to Dr. Preston. I think she has done good work from her level down. I think they have a structure in place, but as long as it sits where it sits, it's going to be an underutilized organization. It will not get us to where we need to be.
It's an ombudsman-plus. We've called it a different name. It has the same duty, mandate and functions that I carry; I think it's just lipstick.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You mentioned that we have to get rid of the dinosaurs. Where do we start? Would you suggest that there's no problem at all, for example, at the Royal Military College? Do we need to start at the very beginning there, with officers?
4:30 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I've said it and I'll say it again: I think what needs to happen is that members of the Canadian Armed Forces, those who get up every morning to serve this country, need to know that there is an entity outside the chain of command that can deal with their issues.
We can talk about the Royal Military College. I've spent time there and heard the stories from that place also. Until we change the opportunities for the victim, we're not going to make any headway.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
All right. Thank you very much.
We move now to Mr. Baker.
Go ahead, please.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thanks very much, Chair.
Mr. Walbourne, I want to go back to the conversation that you and I were having in a previous round of questioning and explore that further and understand better, if I can. We were talking about the fact that you indicated that you had met with the minister to share with him allegations of sexual harassment, and that the next day you heard from the Privy Council Office. It appears that the minister took action to refer it to the Privy Council Office.
I asked you what action the minister could have reasonably taken, and you suggested that one option would be to undertake an investigation. You also talked in your testimony—and we've heard this not only from you but also from others who've presented to this committee—about the need to not just protect confidentiality, which you and I have already discussed, but also protect the victims. Those people coming forward need to be protected over the long term and be assured that their concerns are addressed. Part of doing that would involve an independent and impartial investigation.
I'm just wondering whether it would be seen as independent and impartial if the minister undertook an investigation in that circumstance.