National Defence Committee on Oct. 26th, 2020

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

We have a lot of relationships with countries that are doing that work. As part of the Elsie initiative, for example, we're working very closely with Zambia and Ghana, which are among the biggest troop- and police-contributing countries that contribute to the UN. We're talking with them about their system and about what we've learned, what they've learned, and how we can all do better. We're certainly not detached from those conversations at all.

I understand there's no substitute for being on the ground. We're also accessing that in different ways. It's not something that we are not having as an input at all.

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

Yes, I just want to add that we do have 29 Canadian Armed Forces personnel deployed on UN missions right now: in South Sudan, in Mali. We also have an episodic Hercules aircraft that goes down to Africa every six months, for about a month, and provides airlift to the United Nations as part of our Vancouver principle and pledge. We do have Canadian soldiers, and there are also RCMP who are deployed, today, on UN operations.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Okay.

Earlier we heard that in the Georgetown WPS index Canada had slipped from seventh or ninth down to 11th. I'm just curious about your thoughts on why we slipped down in the rankings. I'm sure we don't want to be slipping any further. What are your thoughts on how we can go back up the rankings and get back to seventh or ninth or wherever we were, and maybe go above that? Do you have some ideas on how we can move back up the line?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

I used to work at Georgetown and with that institute very directly, and contributed to help create it.

I haven't read the latest one in enough detail to tell you why we decreased those few spots. What I can tell you is that it is a limited ranking, as most rankings are. The last time I checked, it didn't include things related to women in the security forces. I'll have to go through and identify exactly why that was. With any ranking of that nature, I take it as an indication but not something of concern if we're still talking about the movement of a few spots in the top range.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

You have 20 seconds, Mr. Benzen.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Maybe you can just give us some thoughts, then, on some of the other countries that are at the top of that list, countries like Norway and Iceland. Can you give us any thoughts on something they're doing that Canada could learn from and maybe duplicate?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

Something that is being practised by leaders around the world—we are doing it in many different ways, and I mentioned we can do more of it—is systematic engagement of civil society organizations in policy-making. For the first time, our national action plan, for example, now has civil society co-chairs at the advisory committee. That was something we did for the first time, having learned from other places about that role. This way civil society has regular meetings and a consistent way of engaging and holding us accountable.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Ambassador Jacqueline O'Neill. I will ask it in French. Is that okay with you?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

I may answer in English, but it's okay for the time being.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Okay.

Good afternoon, Ms. O'Neill. Thank you for joining us today.

My question is about the inclusion of women in our armed forces. According to your experience of including women in matters of international security, what states are doing the best in that area?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

Thank you for your question. I will answer in English to be more specific.

Let me speak broadly. I'll start with the United Nations. There are about 82,000 uniformed personnel right now across 22 peace operations. Within the military forces, women comprise about 5% to 6%; within police, about 15%. We noted earlier that the UN has a target as well, just as we do. The target for women serving in military contingents by 2028 is 15%, and 25% for military observers and staff officers. Brigadier-General Bourgon can speak to Canada's meeting those commitments.

In terms of your question about other militaries, just to give you a perspective, in NATO women comprise about 11% of the military ranks of NATO countries. Keep in mind that Canada is 15%, as the brigadier-general just said, but they represent only about 7% of forces active in NATO operations and missions. They're very significantly under-represented in decision-making positions.

I'll end by very briefly saying that all of these figures are very hard to come by. I have a dream that we will someday have a placemat, like the International Parliamentary Union has, that shows the proportion and rank levels of women in security forces around the world. But there are many countries—China, for example—that don't disclose that. It speaks to national security issues. There are a lot of countries that aren't regularly reporting, even through NATO, what their force levels are and the proportion of women within them.

We can speak to some of it—Canada's is exceeding some, not exceeding others—but we still have a lack of information. Part of what resolution 1325 and other focus on this issue has enabled us to do is actually ask the question and find out where we stand currently.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

What do you think explains that success? What steps should Canada take to advance in this area?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

I will talk about measures that explain other countries' success, and the Brigadier General could talk about Canada.

Other countries have adapted their recruitment process.

They targeted women specifically by asking women what they wanted to do as interests.

Working previously, for example, with the U.S. military with women deployed on international operations, we looked at recruiting processes. They showed pictures of people with AK-47s jumping out of helicopters to go serve as UN police officers. UN police officers, first of all, aren't armed. They're not typically jumping out of helicopters.

When we did focus groups, we learned that women were interested in having a career-enhancing experience. They were interested in working with community. They were interested in experiencing governance in other countries. The most successful ones are the ones who customized recruitment processes in a targeted way. Some of them also have mandatory service as well, of course.

The Brigadier General may want to add something.

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

Yes, thank you.

In the beginning, the Canadian Forces were in favour of integrating women, but they are now working on including women. There is a difference between integration and inclusion. Inclusion means listening to women's needs and taking into account their strengths and weaknesses. We listen to them, and they participate in daily decisions. I would say that there are no longer any differences between women and men in the Canadian Forces.

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

Can I add to that really quickly?

The majority of countries also don't allow women to serve in combat roles. The fact that we enable it puts us on a different path that I think will ultimately lead us to be more successful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you for that.

We go to Mr. Bezan, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the ambassador and the general for joining us today and sharing with us the issues that we're dealing with to make sure that women are able to enjoy a fulsome career within the Canadian Armed Forces.

Brigadier-General Bourgon, you mentioned that there have already been 134 members of the Canadian Armed Forces who have been released because of sexual misconduct and the role of Operation Honour.

Can you tell me whether they were discharged honourably or dishonourably?

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

I do not have the answer to that question, sorry.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Would you be able to get it to us?

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

Of course.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, General.

Also, I've been somewhat concerned for some time now that the military justice system is somewhat backlogged and at a stalemate because military judges are not hearing any cases. Of course, the Jordan principle comes into play in that justice delayed is justice denied.

I'm wondering how many cases revolve around sexual misconduct. We have members of the armed forces who have their charges dropped because they haven't been processed through the military justice system in an expedient amount of time. I'm curious as to what those numbers are.

Ultimately, how is that impacting the morale of female members of the Canadian Armed Forces?

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

As I said, I don't have the statistics. Again, justice is not my field, but I'm sure we can get that information for you.

At the end of the day, we take measures from the get-go. We listen to the victims. We ensure that there is separation between the perpetrators and the victims. The victim is the most important person. The chain of command, the support network, is there around him or her in those difficult times. The sexual misconduct response centre is available 24-7 for the victims, but more than that, for the chain of command to also support CAF members.