National Defence Committee on March 22nd, 2021

[Ray Novak]

Again, I can't bring a legal perspective to that answer, but I think it is not only appropriate but essential that, if a political level of the government, whether that be senior staff or the minister, receives information, rumours or allegations, those be immediately shared and investigations be pursued by the appropriate authorities.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

You said you were briefed on the investigations against General Vance. As the Prime Minister's chief of staff, were you briefed on all investigations against senior government officials?

[Ray Novak]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

In the case of this appointment, I think I've been very candid about the information that I was aware of in the spring of 2015. As the ad hoc committee process unfolded, I don't recall being briefed at the time on other allegations regarding senior officials.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

To your knowledge, the rumour you heard about a possible sexual misconduct allegation against General Vance in Gagetown, was that regarding Major Kellie Brennan, who came out publicly regarding General Vance this year, or was it a different woman?

[Ray Novak]

I don't recall hearing Major Brennan's name until recent weeks when she did the interview. That said, I cannot recall with certainty the name that was conveyed to us with that rumour six years ago, so I'm not completely sure.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

At a time when you had allegations against General Vance from third parties, even without a complainant coming forward, even confidentially, you still opted to direct an investigation to be undertaken. Is that your testimony?

[Ray Novak]

That's correct. The rumour that was conveyed from the chief of staff of the veterans affairs minister in July 2015 was taken very seriously. That's why I conveyed the rumour directly to the NSA and requested an investigation. That's why we had internally agreed this appointment would be deferred or cancelled, if necessary, if those investigations yielded additional information, which they did not.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Is it normal to give a $50,000 raise to the chief of the defence staff?

[Ray Novak]

I again can't speak, obviously, specifically to the pay structure and the decisions made. I do note that the timing of that bonus is certainly troubling, given the other facts that seem to have been known at the time.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What other facts—relating specifically to the allegations of sexual misconduct or something else?

[Ray Novak]

I'm simply referring to media reports that, in 2018, there were allegations that were brought forward that, for whatever reason, weren't investigated at the time.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Could there be any other reason for a pay raise of that significance to be given to an individual such as the CDS?

[Ray Novak]

I won't speculate on why the pay raise decisions were taken. I think those questions are best directed to the government of the day.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How did you react to General Vance's role in the removal of Vice-Admiral Norman?

[Ray Novak]

I'm before the committee to discuss the appointment process for General Vance, so I'm not sure.... I do have views on that, but I'm just not sure it would be appropriate to get into them today.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Did any chief of the defence staff routinely socialize with Prime Minister Harper?

[Ray Novak]

Not to my knowledge, no.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Was the previous Conservative government prepared to cancel his appointment as chief of the defence staff if the investigations concluded General Vance was guilty of an offence?

[Ray Novak]

Yes, absolutely. I am very confident in saying that if there had been additional information known, whether conveyed by that anonymous email, or whether the investigation of the rumour had picked up any facts or anything else that needed to be investigated, that change of command ceremony would have either been deferred or cancelled.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Did you ask for briefings on the investigations that were being carried out?

[Ray Novak]

Yes, absolutely. In the case of the rumour, I conveyed it to the senior officials in the Privy Council and asked that it be investigated. In the case of the email that was received by someone at the department, it was our senior officials in the Privy Council who briefed us on it who indicated to us that the receipt of the email had triggered the national investigation service to again review the matter. Then ultimately, they reported back that the review was closed and no further information was found.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Madam Vandenbeld, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I just want to say that this discussion we're having today is so incredibly important. When we look at the safety of women and men in the Canadian Armed Forces, it is really vital that we look at how people are promoted, how people are appointed and what kinds of qualities and traits are the things that are rewarded, what kinds of incentives and what qualities and traits are overlooked as peripheral.

I think that what we're seeing systemically is that when there have been accusations, allegations, rumours that have to do with sexual misconduct, those have not seemed, in history, to have been things that have prevented people from being rewarded. I think that is a fundamental thing we have to remember in the line of questioning that we're doing today.

First of all, I'd like to ask you to confirm who appoints the chief of the defence staff. Is it a Governor in Council appointment?

[Ray Novak]

The chief of the defence staff is a GIC appointment. That is correct.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Perfect.