National Defence Committee on March 22nd, 2021

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to start by thanking Mr. Novak for his frank and comprehensive testimony today before the committee. I think it is quite helpful.

I have some questions about the timelines and, again, the “who knew what when” question.

What you've told us this morning is that there was an initial investigation into the allegations involving General Vance when he was at NATO. It seems to be that those were dismissed on the basis that there was a consensual relationship.

I don't know whether you ever saw the report, but it seems to me a bit strange that it's okay for a senior member of the military to make advances toward a more junior officer, providing that they're wanted and that it doesn't indicate problematic behaviour. Was that the sense of that report, or did you see that report?

[Ray Novak]

What I can share with the member is what officials in the Privy Council briefed us on, which was that while the general was deployed on the NATO mission, he was in a relationship with an officer who was subordinate to him but not in the chain of command. The review of that matter had not yielded any reprimand of the general and the investigation was closed. We were told that the other officer involved was the general's fiancée.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Really [Technical difficulty—Editor] ask you to draw this conclusion. I am actually drawing a conclusion. Everybody is saying, well, General Vance was lucky in this case because the advances weren't unwanted. They would have been quite inappropriate had they been unwanted advances.

Would the ad hoc committee that looked at this have been aware of that initial investigation and that initial allegation of sexual misconduct in making their recommendation?

[Ray Novak]

As I mentioned in my statement, in the process leading up to the appointment in April, the ad hoc committee's work had yielded this matter of the general's time at NATO. We were briefed again by our officials on the fact that the general had been in a relationship with a subordinate officer not in the chain of command, that there was no open investigation into the matter, that there had been no reprimand of the general, and that, by this time in 2015 when we were learning about this, he was engaged to the other officer.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Would the two new pieces of information that came forward in July to the ad hoc committee, which included the Minister of Defence, have been made available, or were those dealt with just by the national security adviser rather than the ad hoc committee at that point?

[Ray Novak]

Essentially the same members of the ad hoc committee were aware of the two pieces of information that came forward in early July: the anonymous email that was received by someone at the department and the rumour that was relayed to me, which I reported to the national security adviser.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

What you've told us is that General Vance was asked directly about the Gagetown.... Well, it's called a rumour at this point.

Given the seriousness of the allegation and that it was the second or third allegation of sexual misconduct against the potential chief of the defence staff, and given that obviously you knew which officer was involved with General Vance, did anyone interview the victim in this case?

[Ray Novak]

As I said in my statement, let's be very clear on what was known at the time. In March 2015, we were briefed on this matter of how the general came to meet his then fiancée while on a NATO deployment. We were told that she was subordinate and not in the chain of command.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'm sorry. I'm asking about Gagetown.

[Ray Novak]

I'll come to Gagetown.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Okay.

[Ray Novak]

I just want to ensure that we're not adding allegations that we were not aware of at the time.

That's what we were aware of in March, the issue relating to NATO.

In early July, before the change of command ceremony, the issue of the rumour was raised with me and I reported it to the national security adviser at that time. The rumour was—as I said earlier—that the general was in an inappropriate relationship some 15 years before and/or had interfered to further the career of an officer. That was the rumour. That's what was relayed to the national security adviser for investigation.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Did anyone interview the officer Vance was allegedly involved with or had furthered the career of at this time? Vance said, according to your testimony, that he did have a public relationship with this person, so it was obviously known whom we were talking about at the time.

[Ray Novak]

All I can say to the member is what I said in my statement, that I relayed the rumour to the national security adviser. The national security adviser, sometime later, reported back that he had done two things. He had investigated that with the department, with the Canadian Armed Forces, and had found nothing, and he had spoken to General Vance about it directly, who denied it.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Given the shortness of time, I'm going to go on. What records would have been kept of these investigations and these concerns that were raised? Would the Privy Council Office have these or have had these on file? Would they be part of some kind of file about the chief of the defence staff and his appointment?

[Ray Novak]

There would have been memos related to the ad hoc committee process from the Privy Council during the course of February and March 2015. As I stated, I don't have access to those records at this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

That's great. Thank you very much.

We move to Mr. Benzen.

Go ahead, please.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Novak, for appearing here today.

Mr. Novak, I'd like to ask you a question. If the Minister of Defence were given evidence of sexual misconduct, and he looked at that evidence and he then wanted an investigation started, would that be interpreted as political interference?

[Ray Novak]

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I think my actions speak to my views on this matter. When someone at the political level of government, whether that is a senior staff member or minister, comes across serious allegations or, frankly, even a rumour, I believe they have a responsibility to convey that information to the appropriate officials and to insist on an investigation, and insist on knowing the results and acting on facts or further information, if any, as the result of that.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

According to the investigations that were done at your time, there was no evidence of sexual misconduct presented against Mr. Vance that you refused to accept and investigate.

[Ray Novak]

I've been very clear. We were essentially aware of two different issues.

One was the matter of the general's time when he was posted to NATO. As I mentioned, in March 2015 it was conveyed to us that he had been in a relationship with an officer who was subordinate, not in the chain of command. There had been no reprimand against him following the review of the matter, and by 2015 he was engaged to this individual.

In July, as I mentioned, we were made aware of a rumour that, while at Gagetown, he allegedly was in an inappropriate relationship—and it was a rumour that was not completely clear—and/or he had acted improperly to further someone's career. That was the rumour. Those were the two different issues we were aware of. As I mentioned with regard to the rumour, that was relayed to the NSA for investigation.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you.

Clearly the Prime Minister wanted to make a good selection when he was picking a chief of the defence staff. Can you talk a little about how many investigations the Conservative Party carried out? Can you talk about how many departments and agencies were involved and how in-depth you went into this investigation to make the right choice or the choice that you made?

[Ray Novak]

As indicated, we were briefed by the Privy Council that the NATO matter had been investigated by the NIS, by the department and by the Canadian Armed Forces. I relayed to the committee what we were briefed in March 2015, which was that there had been no reprimand, that there was no open investigation and that the general had been in a relationship with a subordinate who wasn't in the chain of command.

In July, as I indicated, the rumour that we picked up was relayed to the NSA, which investigated that matter. As he briefed us later, with the department, with the Canadian Armed Forces, he reported to us that there was nothing in the files. There was no record of a complaint. There was no complainant.

Separate from that, as I indicated at the outset, when an anonymous email was sent into the department in July—this pertained to the NATO matter—we were briefed that there was nothing new in it. We were briefed that the receipt of the email caused the national investigation service to review the matter again, which it did, and we were briefed that the matter was later closed with no new finding.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Were you briefed on all these investigations that were going on, as chief of staff?

[Ray Novak]

Yes. As I indicated in my statement, I was briefed in March on the NATO deployment issue as I've described. In July, I was the one who received the rumour, which I relayed to the national security adviser for investigation, and I was briefed by the national security adviser on the anonymous email that had been received pertaining to the NATO matter.