Evidence of meeting #22 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
All right. Time is up, I'm sorry.
I'm going to have to be strict, because we're coming to the end of our time.
We move on to you, Mr. Garrison, please.
2:50 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I want to go back to Ms. Sherman. First, directly to you, and for the record, none of my questions today have as their intent to impugn your integrity or your record of public service. I have the utmost respect for that. As I said, I think it's unfortunate that both the Prime Minister and the minister referred the committee to you.
I do think what your testimony reveals today is a parallel to the culture of denial and deflection in the Canadian Armed Forces, and also, to one which we heard from Colonel Boland today about deflection and denial within DND. The parallel here seems to be that the privacy of the accuser seems to be much more important than responding effectively to the complaints of sexual misconduct.
With regard to Mr. Baker's comments that the committee is not actually pursuing a solution, I beg to differ. What I have heard very distinctly from those who have filed formal complaints, and many who have not, is that they want to know that there's an understanding at the top level of what sexual misconduct is, and there's a commitment that there will be effective action taken on those complaints.
Without that confidence, we're left with a program like Operation Honour, which failed precisely because it didn't have that understanding and support at the highest levels.
Ms. Sherman, let me go back then and say, once you had reported to the Clerk of the Privy Council that you could not proceed—I won't dispute with you again, whether or not you could have—was there any reason that the Minister of National Defence or the Prime Minister would have believed there was an investigation taking place on the sexual misconduct allegations that were presented by the military ombudsman?
2:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
May I clarify, in 2018?
2:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Not that I am aware of.
2:50 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Was there any response to the Privy Council Office from the minister or from the Prime Minister asking that any further action be taken?
2:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
I would not be in a position to respond to that in terms of the confidence of advice and further discussions internally.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to go back to the Privy Council Office.
We know that on May 9, General Vance was moved up from a DM2 to a DM3 through an order in council, giving him a $50,000 pay raise, plus it was backdated to April 2018. We also know there were a total of 34 orders in council signed on May 9.
Does that, Ms. Sherman, suggest this was done in a full cabinet meeting?
2:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
No, it doesn't. I would just clarify that on the numbers you're referring to in terms of the salary ranges, the change for General Vance from a DM2 to a DM3 was effective in July 2017.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
But it still happened under the current government.
2:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Correct.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
There were four ministers who signed off on his order in council.
Can you tell us which four ministers signed the order in council to increase his salary and move him up to a DM3?
2:50 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
I cannot. I do not—
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Could you supply that information to committee through a reply to a written request?
The other part of this is the Prime Minister's Office is listed as one that's responsible for the department for actually signing off on that order in council as well.
Can you confirm that the Prime Minister signed that order in council on May 9, 2019?
2:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
I am not in a position to confirm that information. I believe it would be a cabinet confidence, but I will respond as requested.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
It's a public document. We'd like to see that document, please, if you could provide that to committee.
The Minister of National Defence said, on March 12, that he has no overview of performance reviews or performance pay, but you said that ministers are part of the performance review process.
If the minister didn't do it, then did he abdicate his responsibility to actually do the performance review of General Vance?
2:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Thank you for that question. I think it's an important opportunity to clarify a little bit.
The performance management program, as I said and as is posted on our website, does involve ministers being consulted about the GIC appointees within their portfolio, so—
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
2:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
So in the performance management process. I believe there is a distinction in terms of the actual decision on the change in pay, the awarding of the pay at risk under the performance management program, that those are managed through my office and preparing recommendations to the Governor in Council...so ministers do not set the pay.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Yes, so if you're setting that pay and you were aware of the allegations against General Vance, did you write a report at all to go on the file of General Vance and raise the red flag that there were sexual misconduct allegations against him before you recommended him for a pay raise?
2:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
Again, if I can clarify, we make recommendations to the Governor in Council. In respect of those changes in pay, the setting of pay on an annual basis. I do not make the decisions myself as a public servant and—
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Would you have put this in his file as a red flag saying that there were sexual misconduct allegations—
2:55 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office
That would be—
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
—so that could be considered when the Governor in Council met to determine whether or not a salary increase was warranted?