National Defence Committee on April 12th, 2021

[Daniel Jean]

That is always a risk, of course, but it is not something that happens very often.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

If a chief of the defence staff had an allegation investigated after it was brought to the attention of the Prime Minister's national security adviser and that allegation proved to be true or was likely to be true, would that trigger a review of their security clearance?

[Daniel Jean]

It's always dangerous to be hypothetical, Madam Member, as you know, but if the information, when you assess it, is to the point that somehow the person could be subject to blackmail and it could undermine their ability, yes, that could be a factor, in the same way that financial difficulties could be a factor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Baker, please.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to both of our witnesses for taking the time to be with us here today.

My questions are for Rear-Admiral Patterson.

Admiral, I have about four questions, but I only have about five minutes for you to answer them, so I'll ask for your help, if you don't mind, in trying to get through them.

First, as the Canadian Armed Forces champion for women, if you were to give us one recommendation to ensure a more level playing field for women in the military, what would it be?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I have to tell you that the thing I would actually start with is families and looking at providing better support for families, because there's a barrier to child care, for instance. Having a more national program that allows women and families to move around more easily would be one of my primary recommendations.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

As the Canadian Armed Forces champion for women [Technical difficulty—Editor] know that women have been integrating into all of the previously male-only trades and roles in the military for at least the last 30 years. Are there [Technical difficulty—Editor] targeted considerations and actions to assure women an equal playing field when they join the armed forces?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I think what you are really talking about here is looking at our culture writ large. What we really need to be having a look at is doing a systemic review to find out where those gaps are and where those deltas are in order to know whether to be.... It isn't just policy. It moves beyond there, but whether it be a policy.... It would be everything from the career paths that women follow and identifying the unintentional barriers that exist there, or to look at the equipment they wear: is it actually meant to help maximize [Technical difficulty—Editor]? On the more indirect side, we need to start really having a look at how we better tackle the permissive environment that allows types of misconduct to occur in the first place. I'm talking about all kinds of misconduct.

Then, recognizing the tightness of time, it's about making sure that we move forward and that there really is a true acknowledgement that there are inequalities in the Canadian Armed Forces, not just for women, but for all other marginalized groups who go there to serve. We have to acknowledge that there is an indifference towards pressing forward on women's issues. We can't just talk about senior levels. We have to go from the tactical level right through to senior level and talk about pockets of non-acceptance in how women serve. Then, finally, we need to be open and honest and listen to where unconscious biases are, basically making sure that we're fully consulting those who are most impacted by a system that wasn't built for us or by us.

That's really where I'd be looking.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

I think have two minutes left for two questions.

As the commander of the Canadian Forces health services, can you tell me if there are areas specific to health care support that might benefit from targeted budgets so that women and other under-serviced groups [Technical difficulty—Editor] LGBTQ2, indigenous people and other people of colour so that they have evidence-based military and operational occupational care provision?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

We know that in Canadian society writ large we have to start looking through a GBA+ lens, a sex- and gender-based lens, in order to determine how we deliver health care and notice those biases. You can say that it's something that is reflected within the Canadian Armed Forces, too, because it's a health care system that has been built to support men. While we've been making a lot of progress, moving forward we would benefit greatly from targeted research, for example, and from partnering with external researchers and advisers [Technical difficulty—Editor] how to create a health care system that provides support for women as they travel through their careers.

Within health services, I think that moving forward on projects that look at research, applying a sex- and gender-based analysis lens to how we deliver care and who we deliver care to will be very beneficial, because ultimately this is about the operational effectiveness of all people, and we need to build that into our systems as well.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much.

I think I only have 30 seconds, so I'll be quick with this one.

As the commander of the health services, a critical-care nurse and previous officer in charge of Operation Honour, what are your recommendations to the committee for areas to focus on and consider to help best address sexual misconduct in the military?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I think we really are going to have to carry on with the culture change recommendations. We need, first and foremost, to address the fact that the supports need to be there for people who are survivors of sexual misconduct or have been victimized by it.

An area that I think is absolutely critical is the work that the sexual misconduct response centre is doing to enhance the programs, because people shouldn't feel that they can't be supported in their chain of command and need to go externally to have their voices heard.

Other areas that I think we need to focus in on would be moving forward with culture change and what that means, and receiving external advice, support, monitoring, etc., to do that.

I know I'm quite tight on time, but I would say that we stand by and welcome any reports that come from this and other committees focusing on the same thing, because misconduct is one aspect, but it also goes into how we effectively integrate all people who are not part of the dominant culture into the Canadian Armed Forces to get the change we're looking for.

These [Technical difficulty—Editor] value.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for RAdm Patterson.

RAdm Patterson, it is difficult for Canadian Armed Forces members who are victims of sexual misconduct, sexual harassment or rape not to feel listened to by their peers. In your experience, what are the consequences of victims not feeling heard?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

Madam Chair, I think it really is looking into [Technical difficulty—Editor] one thing. It's having the ability to actually have their voice heard. I think, first and foremost, we do see long-term health consequences from not being able to have addressed the challenges that are facing you. People can have things such as moral injury coming out of this because, ultimately, members of the Canadian Armed Forces are part of another family. It's the family of work. It's how we are structured and formed. Therefore, one of the consequences of not being able to share your story is that you can become harmed by that, so I think we really need to focus—again, as we've said—on providing supports to survivors of sexual misconduct first and foremost, but we must be partnered with them, and not doing it to them. It's sort of like “nothing about us without us”. I know you've heard that before at this committee.

The second thing I think we also need to do is to focus on prevention as well. We need to, at the same time we're doing this, make sure that we're trying to prevent these incidents from happening in the first place. Again, that means preventing it and also making sure that everybody, from the most tactical level to the senior level in the Canadian Armed Forces, knows how to identify and address factors that cause misconduct to happen between people, whether that be [Technical difficulty—Editor] the appropriate accountability has been established in there, and definitely by creating a psychologically safe environment.

In the short term, to try to better mitigate the health consequences of not being exposed to interpersonal violence in what is in effect your second family—which I think we need to focus in on—we also need to move down the path of continuing to prevent it so that we don't harm as many people as have been harmed already.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you very much.

I assume that the allegations against some of the most senior members of the Canadian Armed Forces and all the media coverage surrounding these allegations have had an impact on the morale of the troops. Can you tell us more about the climate that such allegations can create within the Canadian Armed Forces?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I will speak as the champion for women and as a commander of Canadian Forces health services, because there are 5,000 military, civilian and contracting personnel who work within health services.

It has certainly been a very challenging time. I know you've heard this before, but people feel very angry. However, when we dig down, especially to the voices through the Defence Women's Advisory Organization, we hear about exhaustion and disappointment. In particular, the break in trust, which we've heard mentioned before, comes down to being the straw that has broken the camel's back; but realistically, it's the systemic lack of being recognized and the lack of meaningful progress that we are having some of the biggest challenges with right now.

As we move forward, the idea is to rebuild trust. I'm going to go back to the same message again. First and foremost, we have to be there to support people who have been harmed, and we need to keep moving forward on that. We also need to continue to listen to voices from the tactical level through all the different minority groups that are out there so that eventually everybody will actually feel as though they're being heard.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

In the military, people in positions of authority are often seen as role models. The hierarchical structure is really very important. The members sort of idolize those who have higher ranks. There is almost something mythical. Members are impressed with their knowledge and trust. In fact, there has to be group membership, and people have to trust the hierarchical structure.

When there are allegations like the ones we're talking about these days, does that have an impact on solidarity within the forces, or at least on confidence in the command?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I think I would say that it certainly has shaken our concepts of trust and faith as you move up through the chain of command. For us to truly and effectively move forward, we have to have a look at the factors within our culture that have allowed this type of behaviour to occur.

These are long careers we're talking about, but it isn't necessarily about just the duration of the career. We have to have a look at the fundamental power imbalances that exist in a rigid and hierarchical structure and what things go into supporting people whose behaviour is not aligned with what we see as acceptable as they move forward and progress in the ranks. Looking at moving away from a rules-based evaluation, promotion and appointment system is going to be quite important in doing that and focusing more on the values.

I think it was previously mentioned that as we are starting to move forward and select senior leaders now, we're looking at a 360-degree evaluation of them. It is not just about the face that is seen by senior leadership and the evaluation of a potential leader in the CAF; it's also about starting to hear the voices of others.

Another thing that we're absolutely going to have to deal with is gender stereotypes. This is why, as defence champion, I am here. Gender stereotypes has actually become a very neutral term to address things within our current structure. We're actually structured on a paradigm from quite a long time ago in which we ultimately favour certain genders and certain occupations with regard to positions of power. We value hypermasculinity, for example, in order to determine who the best leader [Technical difficulty—Editor] there is, remembering that that excludes all women and men and non-binary people who do not conform to those standards.

Truly, as we—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to interrupt you. That was fascinating.

I'd like to go to Mr. Garrison.

Go ahead, please

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank you, Rear Admiral Patterson, for your work as champion for women in the Canadian defence forces and for your very important testimony here this morning.

I want to ask a question, which you can decline to answer if it puts you in an awkward situation. I would like to know whether you have been consulted, at this point, by the current chief of the defence staff on measures to help restore trust in the military's commitment to rooting out sexual misconduct.

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

In fact, it has been a widely consulted process. I have very much been part of that process. In fact, we are also, through a phase called “listen”, going back to basics and listening to what the people have to say. In fact, at 14:00 we are certainly going to be listening to the Defence Women's Advisory Organization, local co-chairs, both military and civilian, as one team just to get their perspectives on what's going forward.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

The current chief of the defence staff announced what he called the culmination of Operation Honour.

Do you believe that the allegations against senior military leaders of sexual misconduct have been a major contributing factor to having to wrap up Operation Honour and its lack of relative success?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I don't know the rationale behind the acting chief of the defence staff's coming out with that statement, but I can certainly tell you, as a former director general with Operation Honour until the summer of 2020, as well as in my position as champion for women, that language really matters. If you listen to people and recognize that Operation Honour, in terms of its name, has become something synonymous with what we do not want, that is, not with honour but with the opposite of honour, then I really do believe it is time to culminate the work that has been done.

We need to look to the lessons that have worked and ask what have we achieved, and then reshape it and move forward from here. I do believe the culmination is a good point. What it really means, for those who aren't used to military terminology, is that we've done as much as we can with this and that we now regroup and continue to move forward with where we're going next.