Evidence of meeting #6 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was capacity.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christian Leuprecht  Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual
Conrad Sauvé  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Red Cross
Amir Abdulla  Deputy Executive Director, United Nations World Food Programme

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much. It's much appreciated.

Mrs. Gallant, you have the floor.

November 23rd, 2020 / 12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dr. Leuprecht, we know Russia has used the pandemic to test NATO forces' readiness on many occasions and to demonstrate new conventional and hybrid capabilities.

Are you aware of any instances of Russia testing our domestic national defence or demonstrating new and conventional hybrid capabilities specifically against Canada?

12:30 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

Well, certainly Russia continues its intrusions into the NORAD air identification zones, and those have gone unabated. There have been some instances of increased activity, especially in the air domain.

If you consider the Canadian Armed Forces deployment to Latvia, then Canada finds itself under constant and daily persistent attack by Russia. I think what we can learn from the deployment in Latvia is that all western countries will need to learn to live in a situation that our allies in Latvia have found themselves in for years, which is this persistent effort, an asymmetric effort, by Russia in the conventional space—land, air, sea, aerospace and cyber domains—to undermine not just our troops and operations, but our societies and our institutions. We will have little choice but on the one hand to become more resilient and on the other hand to be able to draw clear red lines.

That points to the challenge that was already raised earlier, which is that the Canadian Armed Forces are doing a host of things today that they weren't doing in the aftermath of the Cold War, yet we have significantly fewer resources to carry out all of these activities. In cyber, for instance, information operations is one of those examples. It seems that Canadians and politicians are constantly happy to ask more of the Canadian Armed Forces, while either leaving resources constant or providing fewer resources. In terms of equipment, you could argue that we're not even keeping up in terms of what is required just to stay at the level we are at.

I think we are underestimating the resolve and the challenges that our adversaries and hostile activities against Canada pose to our Canadian interests, values, allies and partners. Also, there are those activities in other parts of the world, as our colleagues just talked about, in crisis situations, where we know that our adversaries are actively pouring fuel on the fire in order to create conflagration, which will then cause migration to Europe and other places in order to destabilize regions and allies and partners.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Then the pandemic in Canada has made us more reliant...and placed new burdens on technology for our day-to-day lives.

What kinds of cyber-attacks are we now more vulnerable to from nations such as Russia, Communist China or Iran in our current environment?

12:35 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

I would refer you to the excellent “National Cyber Threat Assessment 2020” that was released last week by the Communications Security Establishment. I would highlight in that assessment that—to the best of my knowledge—for the first time, CSE specifically identified China and Chinese activities in that assessment. The growing cognizance of that is increasingly important to calling out those players who are intentionally trying to undermine us and our institutions.

Certainly by becoming more connected as a result of the pandemic, we have also created a host of new vulnerabilities, whether that is within politics, government, the private sector or among our civil societies. That provides a host of new weak links that our adversaries are actively exploiting. We know, for instance, that universities and research institutions have been at the forefront, and we know this because of previous statements released by CSE in co-operation with partner countries.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much.

Next we have Mr. Bagnell, please.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your very interesting input, and congratulations to Mr. Abdulla for your Nobel Peace Prize.

Mr. Abdulla, you mentioned climate change a few times, which was very interesting.

I'd like it if you could comment on how climate change has affected the people who need the food you're delivering, and perhaps their own generation of food. Also, how is it affecting the providers of the food, being in a different climate?

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Executive Director, United Nations World Food Programme

Amir Abdulla

Thank you very much.

I think the impact of climate change in many of the countries that we provide assistance to can be seen on several fronts. On the food security front, you have serious and increased droughts. People have started to move the crops that were not as drought-resistant as they may have been. I think there are some agricultural techniques that one is looking at to improve.

In as many areas that you have droughts, there are others where you have repeated floods. We are also seeing issues of land degradation. People are having to use agricultural techniques that perhaps are not the best for the land because there is either too much water at times or not enough water at others. We need to improve people's capacities to have better harvesting and water storage.

Another impact we are seeing on food security is that as pastoral lands get reduced, where people can put their animals out to pasture, particularly herders and nomads—particularly in the Sahel—they are pushed southwards where they're starting to impact on what have traditionally been the farmers' areas, the farmlands. The herders have come into a clash with the farmers and then that begins tensions between those groups of people that then is exploited by people like ISIS, al Qaeda, and in West Africa al Qaeda, Boko Haram. They exploit the tensions and conflict that has arisen between people who are trying to source their food through different means.

From the supply side, I think one thing we are seeing is that because of the impact of certain climate issues on some countries, their ability to be as generous contributors as they have been in the past would be one impact. One other area that I did mean to pick up on was migration. We've seen migration that has been impacted with people moving from parts of Africa northwards from the Sahel and across the Mediterranean, but also in Central America there's what's known as the dry corridor. In many of the countries in Central America, the people are pushing northwards and a lot of that is driven by people's inability to have more than basic subsistence. Even basic subsistence agriculture on some of those marginalized lands is increasingly difficult.

Those would be just some of the key areas.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you.

I just have about 30 seconds left and I have a question for the Red Cross.

I'm curious as to the percentage of your workers in Canada who are paid and the percentage who are volunteers. Could you just give a rough figure because we only have about 20 seconds left.

12:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Red Cross

Conrad Sauvé

A rough figure is we have about 20% paid staff to 80% volunteer. It's something around those numbers.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you.

We go to Mr. Bezan, please.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Madame Chair.

I know that time is short so I want to get to my questions. They will all be targeted towards Professor Leuprecht.

Professor, as we heard at committee last week, the Canadian Armed Forces are going to be playing a role in the distribution of COVID vaccines across the country. In your opinion, do you believe they have the logistical capability to do that and do you see any constraints?

12:40 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

I have no doubt, given the support the Canadian Armed Forces were able to provide to the Public Health Agency of Canada when called upon with personal protective equipment on the logistics side as well as on the supply chain and lift side, that they fully have the capability to provide whatever support is required in carrying out whatever strategic plan the government provides with regard to the distribution of the vaccine.

Of course, this is a zero-sum in the end because the more and the longer we have to rely on the Canadian Armed Forces to provide this logistical capacity and support means that capacity is not available for other types of operations or support.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I appreciate that. Thank you, Professor.

You made the comment, both in your written materials this summer and then also here in committee today, about the “moral hazard” we found ourselves in because the provincial governments have underinvested in emergency response. Do you believe that this is an abdication of their responsibilities? Should they be penalized for it?

12:45 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

There is little political payoff for provincial governments to invest strategically in critical infrastructure, but it seems that when the federal government steps up with co-operation and with funding, then there is an incentive for the provinces to do so. I think this is a joint responsibility that they have to exercise.

I am concerned that in the aftermath of the pandemic, as provincial resources shrink, there may be an effort by politicians and governments provincially to focus on those things that get them the most votes, not on the things that will provide medium-term sustainability. The challenge for the federal government is that while the federal government can send invoices every time the Canadian Armed Forces are called out, that is highly fraught politically, of course, in particular when those invoices go to provinces that are already in dire fiscal circumstances.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

We know that under National Defence Act—I believe it's part VI of the NDA—there is the aid to civil powers. Do we need to change any of that legislation to reflect the current realities we're facing and the abuse of the provinces calling in the armed forces every time they seem to get into trouble?

12:45 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

We did change the act after the Canadian Armed Forces were called out to shovel snow in Toronto.

There are quirks of the act that go back to Confederation and that we are only now starting to iron out and bring into the 21st century. Under the act now, the minister is ultimately responsible for making the call, in coordination with the chief of the defence staff, who decides how to operationalize that call, so there's considerable discretion also on the part of the Canadian Armed Forces in how exactly to respond to that call.

I think that when we have issues.... For instance, if there are repeat issues where the federal government provides an opportunity to have those addressed in terms of critical infrastructure and provinces do not step up, or, as referenced, as seen in a place such as Fort McMurray, for instance, where we have significant delays in the construction of the critical infrastructure that could have averted some of the disaster we saw only months ago, perhaps there's an opportunity to rethink.

I think penalties are probably going to be less effective than trying to set the right incentives at the federal level and provide the right strategic planning capability for those incentives. I also think that the Canadian Armed Forces—so we don't always cannibalize our own organization—need to set up their own domestic response unit as—

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Let's talk about that domestic response unit now. Are you talking about something similar to DART, which we have for international relief? Or are you thinking more of something along the lines of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which could provide that long-term infrastructure investment, particularly, as you mentioned, in the north and Arctic regions of Canada, but then be there to provide the humanitarian assistance for disaster relief?

12:45 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

I think a dedicated unit for domestic operations of about 2,000 reservists and regular force personnel who are the immediate front-line capacity for smaller types of call-outs and smaller types of operations.... But I also think there is an opportunity to have a conversation with provinces about standing up much more robust provincial emergency services organizations. Currently, we have tactical capacity to organize emergency measures, but we have no deployable capacity.

I think one of the things that we learned from the Red Cross is that we need to have a much more systematic surge capacity of volunteers. For instance, in Germany and Australia, that is coordinated through state emergency services like the Bundesanstalt Technisches Hilfswerk.

Currently, the Red Cross is having to pick up most of those pieces. I think there's more for government to do to make sure that the right volunteers and the right capabilities are available at the right moment, and the Canadian Armed Forces can then help to get that expertise to where it is needed.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much.

Mr. Baker, please.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My questions are for Mr. Sauvé, of the Red Cross.

First of all, I'd like to thank you and the Red Cross for your work in our long-term care facilities.

In my riding of Etobicoke-Centre, we lost 42 seniors at Eatonville Care Centre. It's one of the five centres where the Canadian forces provided assistance and was mentioned in their report about the appalling conditions in Ontario long-term care facilities.

You said that the Red Cross was involved in the training of the Canadian forces. You also took responsibility for the work done before that by the forces.

From your perspective, what impact has the work of the Canadian Armed Forces had in our long-term care facilities?

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Red Cross

Conrad Sauvé

When it happened, it was necessary. In discussions over the past two years, it has been determined that the Canadian Armed Forces, which are trained for something else, should be the last resort.

The Red Cross has demonstrated that it's possible to develop a civilian capacity that can intervene in situations that require primarily a civilian operation. It was absolutely necessary to increase this capacity to deal with the problems that arose. We have demonstrated that we can replace the army. This is what happened in long-term care facilities, where a civilian capacity was put in place.

Whether it's climate events or a pandemic... It must be said that the pandemic is an exceptional situation. We must take the time to analyze the repercussions and see how we can improve the situation by putting systems in place.

We have been working for years with the provinces to improve the Red Cross response to emergencies. We need to take another step in this direction by having more capacity on a more permanent basis so that we can play a role in these situations and perhaps avoid having to call on the military.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I agree with you. The Red Cross has demonstrated its capabilities in several areas.

It would be interesting for my constituents who are listening to this discussion to know your point of view. You know a lot more about what's going on in these long-term care facilities than most people do.

Can you tell us what impact the Canadian Armed Forces' assistance has had on our seniors? I'm asking you this question so that my constituents can understand the impact you've had. In the last minute that I have left, I'd like to know what impact the Red Cross has had in caring for our seniors.

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Red Cross

Conrad Sauvé

I can't speak for the Canadian forces, but I can say that the impact of the Red Cross's work in these facilities has been enormous.

Seniors in these institutions and several employees who worked there had contracted the virus. It was a vicious cycle. We were losing staff and were less able to provide services. There were significant gaps throughout the service chain.

The Red Cross provides assistance to organizations to rebuild trust and better control systems. We also provided additional staff during this period. On the other hand, we were losing staff and fear was building in these facilities. There was a lack of staff to provide essential services. We were able to stabilize the situation. The fear in the long-term care facilities was very significant.

In the future, there will be a need to build and maintain a rapid response capacity to respond to all kinds of emergencies.

It's important to remember that the provinces have taken over, certainly in Quebec, by recruiting more staff to meet the needs.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you very much.