Evidence of meeting #8 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
It was.
Unfortunately—thank you, Mr. Benzen—we'll have to go to Mr. Bagnell, please.
It was an excellent answer.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you very much, Madam Fynes. As the chair said, it takes a lot of courage to do this, and there's no way we can understand the effect on you and your family. We certainly appreciate the advocacy you're doing for those still in the military. There's no way we could come to wise decisions if we didn't have input such as yours.
We're really trying to make sure that people who have lost the support of a loved one get the support they need and that, as you said, this doesn't happen again.
Over and above the really good evidence you have given so far in your opening statement and your answer to the first question, what other things do you think the government, the department of defence or the miliary could have done differently before your son's death, and also done differently for you after your son's death, beyond the really good points you have already made?
11:45 a.m.
As an Individual
In the initial circumstance, I would really wish that Stuart had been seen as a mental health problem—and I hate those words, but he needed help—rather than as a discipline problem.
This incident when he was at the duty desk really sticks in my mind. There were a bunch of cadets in the base. He asked if he could go and help out. Now, this is a soldier who has served overseas. He represented Canada and the United States, because he was a really good gunner on the tanks. He represented them there. He had a lot of accomplishments, and all of a sudden he wasn't even good enough to go and help with the cadets. That really hurt. That was the day he killed himself. There was a funeral for another soldier that he wanted to attend. He wasn't allowed to do that.
Their default position was “We have this guy, he's living behind the duty desk, and we're going to get rid of him.” I think he could have been saved. All he really wanted was to return to being a good soldier.
Paragraph 98(c) is a little-known section in there. When I found out about this, I was absolutely astounded. What do you mean, you have a soldier who is sick and you're threatening him with life imprisonment? I'm not quite sure how that saves anybody, and the message it sends to everybody else is awful. When other soldiers see a soldier struggling, they really are scared to put their hand up. There's a stigma attached still to all of this. I think mental health professionals' number one message is “It's okay. Come on in. It's fine. We are going to help you,” not “Come on in, and by the way, we need to start the paperwork to do something else.”
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you very much.
I know this must be difficult, and we really appreciate it. It's very helpful.
Ms. Carlé, I know you didn't quite finish your remarks, so I will give you a chance to finish them before I ask any questions.
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre
No, that's fine.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
On a point of order, Madam Chair.
Out of respect for Ms. Fynes, I did not want to interrupt her while she was talking about her son, but since Mr. Bagnell started speaking, we no longer have the interpretation.
Could we solve this problem?
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Yes, please.
We are going to suspend for five minutes. The technicians have been trying to fix the program in the background. It's not working.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
They are reconfiguring another room, which is directly above us. Those of us attending in person will move upstairs to room 415.
To our witnesses and to other committee members, please stay on the line. If for some reason you get disconnected, just come back on. We will recommence in five minutes from the new location.
Are there any questions? No.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you, everyone. We will now resume.
Mr. Bagnell, I think you must be finished your round. Your time was almost up.
We have amended the order rotation to eliminate round five. The last two Conservative and Liberal five-minute spots will be eliminated for this particular meeting, and we will have MP Brunelle-Duceppe and Mr. Garrison for six minutes to complete the first round with this particular panel. We will then take a short break to bring in the new panel and recommence with questioning in rounds two through four.
MP Brunelle-Duceppe, if you are ready, you have the floor.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for their participation. I was very touched by Ms. Fynes' testimony. I also thank Ms. Carlé who is with us today.
Ms. Fynes, my question will be quite simple. It's important for us, as parliamentarians, to know the answer, if you are able to give it to us.
What do you think were the greatest obstacles you and your family faced in seeking mental health services from the Canadian Armed Forces?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Stuart had multiple hospitalizations and multiple suicide attempts. He did have a short stint at Edgewood in Nanaimo, but it was not an appropriate place for him. For him, a huge obstacle was being sent somewhere where military members speak to other military members and have an idea of what's going on. That's why he wanted to be sent to Homewood, and they refused to do it.
In terms of family, once we realized that Stuart was in trouble and not doing well, I did have a conversation with the chaplain at the base and spoke with doctors at the civilian hospitals. The attitude I got from the hospitals was that he was a big boy, so let him get on with it. The attitude I got from the base was that he was a big boy, so let him get on with it: He's going to do what he's going to do. Neither of them was very satisfactory to me as his mom. I pushed hard, and after Stuart died, there was a closing of the ranks, because I think they knew there were some mistakes that, as I said, had a catastrophic effect.
There's one thing I really hope everybody hears today. Mental health issues among our soldiers are workplace injuries, not defects. Soldiers are not genetically predisposed to killing themselves; they don't want to die. I have yet to meet a soldier who wants to die. They want to get back to doing what they have done best. That puts an onus on all of us, in each of our capacities, to ensure that happens.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Fynes.
I don't have a lot of time, Ms. Carlé, but did you feel that there was a difference in the mental health services offered, with regard to the pandemic, either within the Canadian Armed Forces or Veterans Affairs Canada?
Did you notice any changes, either negative or positive?
12:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre
Yes, thank you very much.
The challenges we experienced during this pandemic around access to mental health supports really relate to the pivot that organizations were able to make to serve people on a virtual platform.
From our perspective, we were able to make that move very quickly because we are an independent organization. What we have seen, however, is that the Canadian Armed Forces have a lot of restrictions around connectivity on a virtual platform. Early on in the pandemic, there were some huge challenges in terms of members accessing mental health supports. I would say that the situation has improved over the course of the pandemic.
I think that one of the major trends we have seen and continue to experience is an increase in interpersonal violence in the home relating to the situation of isolation, and the extra stress and pressure that could be financial, and certainly has been emotional and psychological, during this pandemic.
The Canadian Armed Forces have responded to that in terms of increased resources around interpersonal violence. We are finding that our caseloads have become quite heavy.
This is something that we do experience all the time, but we've certainly experienced a spike during the pandemic.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I thank the two witnesses very, very much. We are very grateful to you for being here.
I think my speaking time is up.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.
We will go to Mr. Garrison, please.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to Ms. Fynes. It's hard for me to call you Ms. Fynes, because we've worked together for so many years now, and out of this tragedy, one of the things I've gained is the privilege of knowing you and your husband Shaun and your second son, and the incredible courage you continue to show.
I have heard recently from other families who just don't feel strong enough to come forward and do what you are doing. I know that they all thank you for being here.
Time is limited, so I want to go back to the question of taking self-harm out of the military code of conduct. We've stressed that that's symbolic. I'd just like you to comment a bit more on what you think it would help with by taking this section out. Most of our NATO allies don't have such a section in their military code of conduct, so it's hard for me to see why we maintain it.
Ms. Fynes, can you tell us what you think would happen as a result of removing this?
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
First of all, I don't see a downside in removing it, and I definitely see an upside to that happening.
A good soldier, a well-trained soldier, learns very early on what the rules are and what's expected of them. This rule doesn't have to be enforced for it to have an effect. They know that it's kind of dangerous to them, right? There's always this little thing lingering in the background.
I think that when they're not well, they don't need one more thought of, “Oh, my goodness, would they really do that to me? Would they lock me up?” I think that the National Defence Act is a fairly succinct act. I think every soldier is well schooled and disciplined, and I would respectfully suggest that if there's just one more thing that might make a difference, then what's the downside? Just get rid of it.
As I said before, I was personally astounded when I found out about this. I'm sure Stuart would have known about it, so yes, if it disappeared, it would just be a really good thing.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much.
I want to turn to Ms. Carlé.
First of all, I do hope you get an apology for the “toing and froing” over you appearing as a witness. I was assured last night personally by the Minister of Defence that there was no intention to try to prevent you from appearing today, so I hope that apology does come.
I know that the Military Family Resource Centre has played an important role, but I think that's not always recognized. That's why I thought it was important for you to be here today.
When it comes to us still losing one serving member a month, on average, across the country to suicide, and when it comes to figures that suggest that 10 times as many may attempt suicide, I wonder if you could just tell us a bit about how that affects your operations as a military family resource centre.
12:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre
Certainly, yes. Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here.
What the testimony is telling us today is how important the voice of family is and how compelling it is to create a culture shift so that families can have a voice when these occurrences happen.
As recently as two weeks ago, we experienced the suicide of a military member at CFB Esquimalt. The way it affects our services is that we rally to support that family, and we often find that it takes on an advocacy role. For example, this member was part of a very small unit, and the other members in the unit were devastated by the loss and also by a feeling that somehow they missed something. There was a comment this morning from a witness who, upon hearing the news, said, “Yes, I knew this was going to happen.” We hear this very frequently in these cases of completed suicide and attempted suicide and family members are working really hard to get that military member to the care they need.
Our involvement, as a military family resource centre, is literally to walk alongside of that family and to help them in terms of their inroads so that they can have a voice and so that the military can become more trauma-informed. What I do see with our military members is that they struggle so much with this kind of loss, and so our work, along with the base mental health team, is to support the colleagues of these members. I'm sure colleagues of Stuart would have appreciated some support, because there is quite a legacy that lingers.
There is probably a very aggressive approach to operational security, and sometimes information isn't forthcoming that should be forthcoming, so we're really talking about a shift in culture here.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I know we have very little time. Do you see delays and barriers to serving members getting the mental health assistance they need? Does that affect their families?
12:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre
Yes, we do, and in the recent suicide, this member had been attempting to get the right kind of care for two years. As our witnesses told us this morning, oftentimes the referrals are not relevant in terms of where our members are going. I think this has to do with a system that feels overloaded and overwhelmed, and I also reiterate my previous point that it concerns me that there are no mental health services after hours and on the weekends, which is when oftentimes a crisis will hit.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I know I'm out of time. I'll just say thank you once again to both of you for your very important testimony today.
