National Defence Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'd like to bring this meeting to order. It's 8:15 and I see quorum.

We have with us this morning General Jennie Carignan and Lieutenant-General Stephen Kelsey to update us on the mandate and priorities of the chief of the defence staff.

On behalf of the committee, I want to welcome you in particular, General Carignan, and also you, General Kelsey. This is your first time here as the chief and the vice-chief of the defence staff, and we wish you only the best. With that, we also hope that we have a really good working relationship at the committee. I hope you will see this as a friendly location and, hopefully, as a collaborative, constructive committee.

We look forward to what you have to say in the next five minutes, and then we'll go to our rounds of questions. Again, thank you for coming, and congratulations to both of you.

You have your five minutes.

[General Jennie Carignan, Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

This is my first appearance as the chief of the defence staff, and I want to begin by saying how much I value the work of this committee. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss my mandate and priorities for the Canadian Armed Forces. I'm joined today by the vice-chief of the defence staff, Lieutenant-General Stephen Kelsey.

We face a volatile and unpredictable global security environment.

This committee is well aware of the current circumstances, from wars in Ukraine and the Middle East to rising tensions in the Indo‑Pacific region, as well as climate change, disruptive technology and disinformation.

These threats require us to be vigilant and forward‑thinking in the way that we approach defence.

We need to acknowledge that although from a defence and security perspective we have benefited from our geography in the past, the situation is changing, and we now have to transform our military to face expanding global threats, with our allies and partners.

I've had the privilege of serving alongside the members of the Canadian Armed Forces for the past 38 years, and now I have the privilege of leading them. They are skilled, courageous and dedicated beyond measure. Supporting and caring for our people must continue to be our top priority, and I'm committed to building on the work of my predecessors. That means focusing on the three R's: recruitment, retention and readiness.

Many of our allies face these issues as well. We need to get our forces back to full strength within five years. This is vital.

To do this, we need to continue modernizing how we recruit and whom we recruit. That means improving our processes without lowering our standards.

This means making a big push to recruit Canadians from all backgrounds, including opening the door to more permanent residents.

Diversity makes us more operationally effective, and we know that what worked in the past is not what will work in the future. We can't continue relying on the same thinking, the same mindset and the same processes or methodology, and we need to bring in new broader perspectives, approaches and ideas if we are going to solve the complex challenges of today and tomorrow.

On retention, we've stopped the downward trend and stabilized our numbers. We are making progress, but there's more to do. When we uphold the highest standards of conduct and performance, where our people can grow and thrive both professionally and personally, not only do we attract the best and the brightest, but we will also keep them as members of the forces.

We also need to be ready, always and for anything. Readiness is a constant, and it is a must.

The world is in a state of transition, and the same is true for the Canadian Forces. Outcomes aren't guaranteed. We must be comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Readiness means having a stronger and more diverse foundation of personnel with the required and relevant capabilities that meet the future of warfare, with the willingness to innovate, adapt and take risks, and it means collaborating with our allies and partners around the world.

This is particularly true when it comes to defending North America alongside the United States, both through the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, and more generally through the collaboration of our Canadian Joint Operations Command and the United States Northern Command.

As you know, global interest in the Arctic is growing, including from our competitors and our adversaries, so we must be diligent in protecting and asserting Canadian sovereignty in the north.

I visited NORAD headquarters this week and saw first-hand how Canadian military members work seamlessly with their U.S. colleagues 24-7 to defend our shared continent. We need to continue to work closely through NORAD to detect, to deter and to defend against aerospace threats, and beyond NORAD, through our joint operations command and with U.S. NORTHCOM to monitor our combined maritime approaches.

For example, this past July, NORAD fighter jets from Canada and from the United States intercepted Russian and Chinese aircraft in international airspace near Alaska. In the same month, HMCS Regina shadowed a Chinese polar research vessel in the Bering Strait. As always, we must ensure our intercepts are carried out safely and professionally.

Mr. Chair, I know none of this is easy. We are transforming the Canadian Armed Forces while also fulfilling our growing obligations. That's like building and flying an airplane at the same time. We know what our challenges are, and we know what we need to do. I believe deeply in this institution and in what it stands for.

We will continue tackling this work with determination and resolve, and we will get it done.

Thank you. We are happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Chief of Staff Carignan.

We will open the round with Mr. Bezan for six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Congratulations, General Carignan, on your appointment as CDS.

Welcome to you as well, General Kelsey. Welcome to the position.

I'm looking forward to our ongoing productive relationship.

Your predecessors have always talked very plainly and bluntly with the committee in explaining the threat environment that we're facing and the readiness of the Canadian Armed Forces. You mentioned your three R's: retention, recruitment and readiness. Let's drill down on that.

The last time General Eyre appeared here, he was talking about being 16,000 troops short of where we need to be at full strength, and there are a further 10,000 members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are undertrained and undeployable.

Do you have an update on those numbers? Where are we today on how short we are and on how unprepared some of our members are?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In terms of regular forces members, we are now at 63,622, and in reserve forces there are 29,176, for a total of 92,798. That was as of August 31.

The numbers do vary on a daily basis, but overall, when we are looking at our numbers and at the rate of attrition, we are at a fairly balanced number for this past year. This year, we are looking at recruiting to our maximum number of 6,400. We are currently at 2,400 in terms of recruitment, with another 1,000 who have been made an offer to join. We are roughly halfway within our strategic intake targets this year, and we're tracking in that area.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

As a clarification, on the 6,400 max recruit, you have 2,400 so far. Is that the maximum that we could put through basic training at this point in time?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

At this point in time, it is, yes. We are currently exploring ways of increasing that number as well. I don't want to stop recruiting if more people come in. We can recruit them and can make offers for them to join the CAF.

We are exploring ways of expanding our basic military qualification as well as the rest of the qualifications in terms of the various trades that we need to train people in, post basic military training. We are in the middle of working this plan currently, but the strategic intake of 6,400 is what we are aiming for, at least for this year, and if we can, we'll go above that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Let's balance that off against the outflow. How many members of the Canadian Armed Forces are leaving every year?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

The number of 6,400 does account for the normal attrition we have, along with increasing the demands we see. Basically, the numbers are planned so that within the next five years we're going back to our numbers, to our full strength, and they do account for attrition as well, but if we can do it faster, this is what we're aiming for as well, at the same time.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We had Professor Rob Huebert here on Tuesday. He said that the state of military readiness in Canada hasn't been at this low a level since 1938, going into World War II.

You talked about readiness. We've talked about resources. The human resource is one side of that, and we're still short of brave women and men who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces. We need more great Canadians to step up and serve, but you're also dealing with a budget cut.

According to the numbers from the parliamentary library and the analysts we have at committee here, the actual expenditures under the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces are now under 1% of GDP at 0.95%, and you're dealing with a budget cut, which General Eyre just said was more than challenging: It was essentially undermining the ability for the armed forces to maintain a level of readiness.

We're hearing stories about budget cuts impacting the maintenance and overhaul of military equipment and the ability to deploy that equipment, and we're also seeing the amount of training activity on the decline. Can you comment on how that budget is impacting day-to-day operations?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

We are currently working on the way ahead for the path to the 2% new investments coming into defence. It's always a balance between being good custodians of public funds and increased investments. Increased investments will allow us to invest in our recruitment processes and will allow us to invest in what we say is the people space, in terms of housing, child care and so on. On top of that, they will allow us to create more operational readiness—the sustainment and all of that—so it's a balance between the two—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Those investments are going into housing when there's no money in the DPU or in the budget for military housing this year, next year or the year after that. It's all back-loaded, in three years' time, and even that doesn't build the 6,700 residential housing units that the Canadian Armed Forces are short of today.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave the question and the answer there.

Just as a point of clarification on the 6,400 number you used, is that a net number? On the number who are leaving and the number you're recruiting, are you 6,400 ahead at the end of the year?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

No. The strategic intake plan is based on the forecasted level of attrition. We need to account on an annual basis for people who we are expecting will be leaving, and it's also based on the number of people we need for various trades within the forces. With all of that together, we come up with the number of 6,400 in terms of strategic intake.

It's also based on our capacity to train to basic military qualifications and then further down the training path for all of our personnel to bring them to their qualifications as well. It does account for that, and then the path we are on is that we want to come back to our full strength within the next five years. This is the number that will allow us to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Unfortunately, I'm in this position, where I cannot ask further questions, but anyway....

There are those who wish I wasn't. Mr. Powlowski is not one of them.

You have six minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I was going to offer you my time if you wanted it.

Continuing on the issue of recruitment, the problem doesn't seem to be people not wanting to join. My understanding is that last year we had 70,000-plus applicants, and only about 4,000 were accepted. With PRs, 21,000 applied, and something like 70 were accepted.

You talked about not lowering standards, but what kinds of astronomical standards do we have that we're turning down 66,000 of 70,000 applicants, or they're just not getting through the process? What's the problem? What are we looking for that these people don't have?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

This committee is well aware that recruiting is a complex affair. We need to understand that the number of 70,000 is the number of folks who have demonstrated a certain level of interest. A big proportion of them—I would say that the numbers we are tracking show 30%—is not coming back when we reach back out to them. It's not everybody who responds once we return to them to continue processing their files, so we are losing a certain amount at that moment.

This fall, we are reviewing the many, many processes and implementing—we are actually implementing—initiatives that will allow us to remove barriers and to create a more streamlined process for folks when they show up at the recruiting centre. For example, with regard to the security classification, it is important that the screening happens for Canadians who join the forces, but we are allowing for reliability status as an initial recruitment standard. Then, as people go through the basic military qualification, we keep working on their security level screening. That's a great advantage for our permanent residents, who have an international nexus to their file. We have to be able to track where they've been before and so on and so forth. That will enable our permanent residents to join as well, and we will keep working on their security levels and screening as they are undergoing initial training.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Someone who knew something about the system and the recruiting suggested that the problem was that every time some new problem comes up with somebody in the military, they add another requirement in terms of recruitment. As a result, over the years we've added on requirement after requirement, so now it's so difficult to get people to pass all these requirements. What do you think of that statement?

Number two is that I was also told that there is a four A's requirement, that if you have asthma, allergies, ADHD or anxiety, you don't qualify. It seems to me that this would exclude a whole lot of people who would be exceedingly qualified. For example, with regard to asthma, two or three of my six kids have asthma, but they had asthma as kids. They hardly ever have asthma anymore. It's not really an issue. However, the army would seemingly say that, no, they don't qualify, even though they might be stellar candidates.

So, I have two questions. The first is about too many requirements, and the second is about the medical requirements and the possibility of easing them.

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

The medical standard is another key screening area when we recruit folks to join the military. The medical standards are being reviewed as we speak, and by the end of this month we will be implementing and modernizing the approach to the medical standards. We realize that the diagnostic tools currently available in 2024 are greatly more sophisticated than they were 30, 40 or 50 years ago, hence the requirement to modernize our standards to ensure that we recruit the Canadians who are available for service. The four A's are definitely correct in terms of the areas we are currently looking at, but in the next couple of months we will be implementing new medical standards to account for the Canadians who are currently showing up at our door. Asthma or those types of conditions were not necessarily as strictly diagnosed many years ago. They are now, hence the need to review our medical standards.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Are the four A's going out?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

Pardon me?

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Are you going to stop using the four A's requirement?

[Gen Jennie Carignan]

The four A's are, of course, being considered, but it's not one-size-fits-all, so there will be an evaluation of the file conducted that will, again, take the whole file into consideration, because this is not the only thing that needs to be considered as part of a potential candidate showing up at our door.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Powlowski.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

General Carignan and Lieutenant‑General Kelsey, thank you for joining us, and congratulations on your appointments.

General Carignan, you said that the pool of permanent residents was a recruitment source. I gather that there have been issues around communication with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, regarding background checks.

Are these communication issues still ongoing? Have they been resolved?

Is the communication among the various departments better in this respect?