National Defence Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[Steven Harris]

I'm not aware of any applications that have come forward related to anthrax among the veteran population.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

When I was first elected, I remember a line of six or seven people sitting all across the gallery. One lady always had a white kerchief on her head. I saw them sitting there for years. Then, lo and behold, a few months ago, they were sitting in this committee. I understand they were from the Gulf War and suffered Gulf War syndrome. During that time, they thought it was from depleted uranium. That has subsequently been put by the wayside.

I'll go back to depleted uranium.

We know we no longer use those shells in Canada, but there would have been some fired in practice ranges.

What would have happened to the shells, wherever they were shot for practice purposes? How would they have been disposed of? Were they just bulldozed over?

[Steven Harris]

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, it is beyond my scope of knowledge as to how CAF, the Canadian Air Force or National Defence dispose of equipment they were using, whether it be artillery or any other kind of equipment they might have. It's not something we would see.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Have you had any incidents of exposure to depleted uranium in the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Steven Harris]

I don't think so. I'm going to say it's not something that I've seen come through as a causal condition, or that has any kind of link, from a Veterans Affairs point of view. I won't promise to be categorical about it. It is possible that, among the applications we've received, there is something.

As I noted, what we are really looking at is someone applying for a condition. Their condition may be cancer or something related from a disease point of view. The condition they are submitting under may be exposure to depleted uranium. However, we may not see it in that context.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

There's no tracing back to where it may have been contracted. Okay.

What about mesothelioma and the exposure to asbestos? Do you see a number of claims or a greater number of claims amongst mechanics and/or people who work in the destruction of buildings and had exposure to it? If so, how are those sites where asbestos has been taken out being located and ameliorated?

[Steven Harris]

I can't speak to how those sites are being located and ameliorated. That would be the colleagues who appeared here before.

With respect to people who've worked in those kinds of occupations, we do work to try to identify exposures that may be likely or experiences that may be likely by certain traits. There was exposure to various chemicals and asbestos on things like navy ships. We're aware of that from a submarine point of view or from a navy ship point of view that may have taken place 10 years ago or 50 years ago. That would factor into the decision-making for somebody who's made an application for a certain condition. If they said they were serving on a ship that was in the news around some exposure or some chemical leaks that occurred on those ships, that would be a factor as part of the decision-making. We wouldn't trace the full story of it. We would just trace the individual linkage from a service-related point of view.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Lapointe, you have five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

Earlier I was asking questions about how we support members who may have suffered occupational health risks or illnesses. Does Veterans Affairs Canada have anything in place to support the family members, to support the supporters?

[Steven Harris]

There are several programs in place that help support those individuals who support injured or ill family members. For example, we have a caregiver recognition benefit. It's an annual allowance of, I think, about $1,200 a month. It's been increased, indexed by inflation, over the course of time since it started. It's about $1,200 a month to recognize the additional work and support that family members may offer to an injured or ill veteran.

We offer some opportunities for family members. If a veteran is not able to take part in some rehabilitation programs because they're too ill, a family member or spouse in this case can take on the rehabilitation and be able to be trained to do something different—something they may not have been able to do as a result of caregiving and other things—if their own career was interrupted. There are some career transition supports that are available for family members, spouses in particular. Again, we can talk about a veteran who might release at a certain base and be transferred to another, or who may be transferred during their career. The spouse comes along with them and needs some help and support in finding a position in the new area to which they've relocated. There are some supports that exist there.

There's the availability of some counselling sessions, independent of the veteran if needed, for family members. There's a VAC assistance service that's a 24-7 service where people can get up to 20 counselling sessions through mental health provisions supported to them when there are issues that may arise as a result of being in a military family.

The last one I'll just mention quickly. There's a veterans family program available through military family resource centres. I'm sure they've come up at this committee a number of times. Releasing members and their family members can go and get supports from their local military family resource centre to help with their transition.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

That's great to hear. Thank you for that.

How does Veterans Affairs Canada ensure that veterans are informed about a potential chemical exposure that they may have experienced during their service? Is there a communication protocol in place?

As well, do you offer proactive health screening?

[Steven Harris]

We don't do proactive health care screening. We're not a frontline service provision organization. We're not a health care entity. The distinction between some of the questions that have come forward from the veterans administration in the U.S. is that they actually provide health care. They have hospitals. They have a full network of supports in place across the country. They do not have nationalized health care. As a result of that, they've set up a whole network of it.

It's a bit different from what we do. We help provide for veterans to be able to access benefits and services that are provided by individuals in provincial settings across the country. We help support them to get eligibility for it. We help to fund their ability to participate in treatment and rehabilitation. We don't do frontline service provision that way. It's a distinction. We do not offer health care screening from that perspective. It would be the health care system that would allow them to do that.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

What about ensuring that veterans are informed?

[Steven Harris]

We do a lot of things to reach out to veterans. When it comes to things like exposures and mass exposures, typically that would be the Canadian Armed Forces and National Defence, if there's something that happens with a Canadian site in particular.

When we're talking about exposures at overseas sites, again, Canadian Armed Forces may certainly communicate that information out. Veterans Affairs doesn't specifically send out information related to potential exposure sites necessarily, but we reinforce by retweeting, recommunicating and posting on social media things of that nature as well. We're not necessarily the first ones to do it. We'll certainly broadly share that among our veteran community as much as possible.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

How closely does Veterans Affairs Canada work with the Department of National Defence to ensure that veterans who have been affected by chemical exposures receive timely support?

[Steven Harris]

We work on a daily basis with the Canadian Armed Forces. From a structure point of view, I know that Madam Lalonde chairs Seamless Canada across the country, working with provincial representatives and departments like Veterans Affairs Canada to try to make sure that there are no gaps between the health care that veterans receive while they're in the military or ultimately when they release out of the military.

I co-chair with the chief of military personnel at Canadian Armed Forces a joint steering committee between Veterans Affairs and the Canadian Armed Forces that meets regularly not only at a very high level, but on a working level, to make sure the issues are identified, shared and rectified as quickly as possible. From a transition point of view, from a health care point of view and from a research point of view, we're regularly meeting with our Canadian Armed Forces colleagues to ensure we're sharing information and working together on those issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm going to bring to a close our time with you, Mr. Harris, Mr. MacDougall and Mr. Svenson. On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for your attendance here. It's quite a good contribution to our study. Thank you.

Colleagues, before we adjourn, it's our intention to do contaminated sites again on Thursday and then the following week on December 10.

I want to raise a flag and you can give some indication to me over the next day or so about this.

The threat environment has been changing quite dramatically in the last few weeks, particularly with the drawdown of Russian and Iranian resources in Aleppo and the increased involvement of the United States in providing equipment to Ukraine. I am wondering whether there was an appetite for us to arrange an updated threat assessment, shall we say, before we break for Christmas.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Would that threat assessment be restricted to a certain area or could we hear about everything, from Taiwan...? Even though it's not a Canadian threat, it could end up involving our troops.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I was thinking in terms of CRINK. That's China, Russia, Iran and North Korea.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Nothing on Ukraine? Oh, that's Russia, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is there an appetite to do that?

Okay, we'll do that.

You're welcome to go, Mr. Harris, by the way.

The second thing is, when the Library of Parliament published a report on Tuesday the 24th, there was an error made. It probably happens once every three centuries. There has been a subsequent report that you received in your P9 account correcting that mathematical error.

Martin is quite able or willing to speak to it, if you wish to speak to it, but noticing that it's 10 after six, I would encourage you to talk to him directly if you think this is big issue. As chair, I don't think it's a big issue, but just for the purposes of the record, I think you should take note that Martin was quick to point out the error and quick to tell us what the error was. We appreciate the superb support we get from our analysts.

Is there anything else, Mr. Clerk?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Andrew Wilson]

No, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Can we go home?

[The Clerk]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The meeting is adjourned.