National Defence Committee on April 6th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry again to interrupt you, but Mr. Motz's time has expired.

Mr. May, you have four minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Witnesses, thank you for being here.

The Office of the Auditor General's 2016 report on CAF recruitment and retention determined that the lengthy recruitment process, training delays, and files being closed when applicants were still interested “contributed to qualified candidates leaving the recruitment process.” The report also noted that “the average time to enrol...was approximately 200 days”.

In your work, have you noticed any [Technical difficulty—Editor] made to the recruitment process to address the concerns identified in that report?

[Gregory Lick]

Certainly, they are in the process now of putting some changes in place. The pandemic has had an impact on recruitment, as you've heard from other witnesses as well.

One of the most common reasons that we have complaints coming toward us is with regard to recruitment and the delays in recruitment. In fact, I was just speaking with a friend of mine the other day who is a reservist, and in discussion with his colleagues, it's the same issue that we hear all the time—that the recruitment process is simply too long. There are [Technical difficulty—Editor] that long, and there are many ways you can do things online. But there are some issues [Technical difficulty—Editor] the CAF is trying to address right now, simply so that the process is not too long.

I have to admit that on the civilian side of staffing, there are very similar issues. The processes are simply too long in order for both the civilian side of the department and the CAF to effectively compete with the people who are going to leave to go to the private sector.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Do you know the average time it takes to enrol currently?

[Gregory Lick]

I'm not sure of the time. I'm not sure if Robyn has a timeline on that right now. To be honest, I don't think it's changed that much.

I'll see if Robyn has the number.

[Robyn Hynes]

I don't know if that number has changed. I know there has been the introduction of two virtual tools that they've used, but I don't know what the success has been. I know they have the ability to do virtual enrolment and virtual selection, which are used through the recruiting centres now.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

You mentioned that COVID-19 had an impact on recruiting during the pandemic. Would you also agree that COVID-19 caused some of those delays we were talking about earlier with regard to programs rolling out?

[Gregory Lick]

Which programs are you speaking about?

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I mean specifically the ones supporting families. We were talking earlier in today's meeting about some of the commitments made by the CAF and that we're three years into the commitment. Would COVID-19 have played a role, in your opinion, in whether those programs have been rolled out?

[Gregory Lick]

I don't believe so. The comprehensive military family plan is something that was approved in principle. Essentially, everybody agreed this is something that we should do—in this case, the Canadian Armed Forces and the department. It simply needs the resources to be able to roll it out and implement it.

In terms of some of the other issues, that is in the domain of Seamless Canada and, in many cases, in the domain of the provinces and territories to deal with. I truly feel that it's not so much a COVID-19 issue. This is something that I believe really needs some strong political attention to be able to bring the provinces and territories together to deal with some very challenging issues, such as the professional qualifications of medical personnel across the country, which not only could affect, help and support the families that move across the country, but I believe it could also truly help and support Canadians in general.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. May.

Madame Normandin, you have 90 seconds.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I won't have time to hear your answer to another question on the transition of military members to civilian life and the transfer of their medical records. I will just put the following question to you, which is related to what you have already said.

The Standing Committee on National Defence will have to report to the House on the testimony it has heard and make recommendations. Should we recommend to the government that the ombudsman report to Parliament from now on instead of to the Minister of National Defence, as is currently the case?

[Gregory Lick]

The simple answer to that is yes. I would support that type of recommendation. I think that's evident. Certainly, the report or position paper I put forward last year provides what I feel is a strong case for that, as well as draft legislation that would enable that.

Yes, I would fully support that recommendation, but that's in the realm of the government and Parliament to be able to endorse.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

In that case, can you submit to the committee the documents you just mentioned? We would very much appreciate that.

[Gregory Lick]

Of course, Ms. Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

You have 90 seconds, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much.

Unfortunately, you were cut off by our illustrious chair. You were about to say that you have an idea on why those backlogs continue to occur, and then he cut you off. I would like to provide you with the 90 seconds to complete your thoughts on that and to potentially provide us with those reasons.

[Gregory Lick]

Thank you very much.

Again, we will look more deeply into that in another year or so. However, I think there are a couple of areas. One is something that I discussed with the chief of the defence staff a little while ago: making sure that people are held accountable for dealing with a particular grievance in the process. In their performance management agreements, the chains of command—at least at the most senior level—all have commitments to make sure that the process is timely. We'll see how that goes.

Again, it needs to be resourced properly. I believe one of the areas is whether the chains of command are getting the proper advice in terms of benefit policy and proper interpretation of policy, in order to provide a fair decision in a timely manner. That could be an area. As well, are the grievance committees and the grievance boards being provided with the right people to be able to effectively deal with a grievance process?

It's not that I believe everybody would want to go and work for the grievance board, but I think it is important that we have good, quality people there in the long term, not just in the short term, to be able to effectively support the system. Without an effective, timely and fair grievance system, you will never gain the trust of the whole institution that you'll be treated fairly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Lick.

Mr. Schmale, you have four minutes.

I bet you didn't know you were dealing with an illustrious chair.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Absolutely. I have only good things to say about you, Chair, and I appreciate the opportunity.

As I mentioned to the witnesses in the first panel, I'm not a regular member of this committee, so I apologize if some questions have been repeated.

You were talking about length of time. What is the average length of time to fix a problem or a grievance that is given to you or your office?

[Gregory Lick]

In our case, if a complaint is brought to us, we will refer the individual to the proper process to be able to get it resolved. As I said, it's a difficult question to answer, because if there are compelling circumstances.... Somebody could bring a complaint to us, as happened last summer, in which the complaints were nine years old and four years old in the grievance system already. They came to us at those points in time. We felt that the circumstances were compelling. If I remember properly, they were facing some financial hardship. We helped them deal with it, and we brought it to the attention of the final authority in this case. They were dealt with quickly, given the compelling circumstances in those particular situations.

It depends on when those complaints in the grievance process are brought to us, so it's difficult to answer your question in that regard.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

To be clear, for that example you gave, those nine years were going through the military process, and at that point they came to you or your office.

[Gregory Lick]

That's correct.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay.

I don't know if you can tell us this off the top of your head, but what is the most common grievance that you and your office receive?