Go ahead, Mr. Burns.
Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ngos.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ngos.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:10 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Protective Services, Government of Yukon
I would echo what Mr. Goodyear is saying. I think investing in the sector is incredibly important—into NGOs but also in those provincial agencies, municipal agencies and federal forces that we may put together. I think that investment is going to be incredibly important. It's not just the Canadian Armed Forces here that we want to protect from the increased burden; this is going to be a burden that's coming across the whole sector.
I think that coordination among those agencies is going to be incredibly important so that we can have a common operating picture about how we work and what roles we're taking on during various emergencies. I would just go back to that previous incident command system conversation. It would be so important to me to have that standardized training and standardized method of organizing ourselves across the country. That will become increasingly important as these emergencies increase and as the various agencies come into these various emergencies.
I would just point out that I think there's a very successful model to build on there with the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, which is probably decades ahead of its time in how it coordinates between jurisdictions on wildland fire response. I think there are a lot of lessons to learn from that agency.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
Professor Leuprecht, you talked about others out there building robust capability with regard to—I assume you meant—domestic calls for support and calls for action. Who's doing incredible things in this world, and what does that look like?
I apologize; I know you had a submission a few weeks ago, but I don't have it on hand.
6:15 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Queen’s University, As an Individual
One place we can start is the federal emergency response plan, and I think this picks up on the previous remarks. We consistently have trouble when we roll out the federal emergency response plan because people don't understand the plan, and there are agencies and people around the table who aren't familiar with it.
One of the things the Emergency Management College and more co-operation could provide is an opportunity to practise much more regularly, in tabletop exercises, what the plans look like so that everybody is familiar with the plans and everybody knows what their jobs are and what their tasks are. That's something that is currently missing and that the federal government ultimately needs to force. We need to be able to coordinate effectively among our own departments, and everybody needs to know what their jobs are before we can go to NGOs, the private sector and other entities and have them pile on, in terms of coordination. I think there's some work that we need to do right here.
Of course, the other concern has to do with the provinces and territories. In January 2021, when the Canadian Armed Forces was deployed to Newfoundland and tried to coordinate, they discovered that Newfoundland had stood down its emergency measures organization because it couldn't fund it. There are considerable asymmetries across the provinces and territories, and it's important that the federal government make sure that all provinces maintain a certain capability, particularly, perhaps, the smaller provinces, which already have less capability to respond to begin with but have disproportionate challenges, for instance all of the Atlantic provinces.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Kerry-Lynne Findlay
Thank you.
MP Normandin, it's your turn, for two and a half minutes.
6:15 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's nice to see you.
I want to follow up on Mr. Motz's question and the answer that Mr. Fisher was given. It had to do with training.
Since the Canadian Armed Forces will likely be called upon more and more to respond to national emergencies and, above all, climate emergencies, what training is most important for members to receive?
Do CAF members have access to training that gives them the skills to respond appropriately in those situations?
What training development needs to be prioritized for CAF members, who, in all likelihood, will be called upon to provide support?
6:15 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Queen’s University, As an Individual
The CAF takes for granted that the experience and training gained during Operation Kinetic, which took place internationally and on the continent, are sufficient to respond to requests on Canadian soil.
As I said the last time I appeared before the committee, the biggest training-related challenge is that the CAF has reached only 85% of its operational capacity from a human resources standpoint. That is due to barriers in the training system.
First, it's important to make sure that enough people join the CAF. Then, it's important to make sure that there are enough resources to provide general training to CAF members and officers. If general training is already problematic, that certainly means there are gaps in specialized training and the experience required for domestic deployments.
6:15 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
In the same vein, if additional training is required to ensure better response to climate emergencies, should more individual training be provided to members being deployed or to those in charge of the operational component of the response?
6:15 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Queen’s University, As an Individual
If I understand correctly, you're asking whether the expertise required is specialized as opposed to general.
Certainly, the operations are increasingly complex, in terms of both number and type. After all, they are human security operations.
The CAF has to meet a greater number of human security demands internationally. When it comes to ensuring that the CAF has the capacity to respond to human security needs domestically and abroad, the training required is complementary in a number of important ways.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Kerry-Lynne Findlay
MP Desjarlais, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.
6:20 p.m.
Edmonton Griesbach, NDP
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thanks again to the witnesses for their responses.
I want to return to you, Mr. Leuprecht, to continue our discussion on some of the parts that you mentioned in your opening statement about ways we can create more resiliency in light of the demand on the Canadian Armed Forces, and some of the existing programs to mediate some of that crisis. Of course, there are far more tools that have to be implemented.
In your opinion, is there value in having a dedicated force, like the one you are describing, that is tasked with responding directly to natural disasters, building climate resiliency and helping to secure and resettle refugees internationally, as well as climate refugees here in Canada, domestically? The Canadian Armed Forces has already committed to some of this work through the DART program. I'm sure you're very familiar with that. What kinds of capabilities would such a force need to make a constructive contribution to our allies when responding to crises, particularly environmental crises and disasters internationally?
6:20 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Queen’s University, As an Individual
If you look at the data of why the Canadian Armed Forces is called on the most, it's for general labour, lift capacity and specialized expertise. Being able to ensure appropriate lift capacity from the Canadian Armed Forces and that that capacity is available when required.... By and large, lift capacity is probably not something that's going to be provided by NGOs, and the private sector is going to have limited capacity to provide it. This is always something that the institution of the state, either through the Royal Canadian Air Force or other capabilities, will need to ensure.
There are certain specialized capabilities that we need to give very serious thought to, because the Canadian Armed Forces, for instance, doesn't have supplementary health capacity that it can simply deploy to the provinces. That's a zero-sum game where you pull people out of operations they're performing in in order to deploy them to the provinces. We need to look very carefully at where these specialized capacities are that are effectively resulting in zero-sum games, to ensure that we have fallback capacity in the NGO and civilian sectors so that we don't need to cannibalize the Canadian Armed Forces from current operations where members are serving, domestically or internationally, in order to respond to immediate domestic urgencies and requirements.
I might add this. You're from Alberta, so you'll be familiar with, for instance, the Fort McMurray flooding challenges. This is a great example of critical infrastructure that doesn't get the attention it needs. It is years behind. A disaster could have been averted if we had stayed on time and made a commitment to ensure that it got built to protect the municipality. However, it wasn't a political priority.
6:20 p.m.
Edmonton Griesbach, NDP
I want to thank you, Christian, for mentioning Fort McMurray. Of course, the infrastructure deficit there is massive, but I'll follow up again.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
May 18th, 2022 / 6:20 p.m.
Fraser Tolmie Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, CPC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for allowing me to be here today. Being new here, I'd like to get some of the concepts that have been shared to see if I'm on the same page philosophically. Some of my colleagues have posed some questions that I'm having some challenges accepting.
The way I look at it, having served in the Canadian Forces, the Canadian Forces has a mission, which is to defend our country. When I look at NGOs, they have a separate mission, which is to support in times of disaster and provide relief. Where the gray area is is that the military has the ability, because it has the manpower, equipment and flexibility, to help out the NGOs.
Would you agree with that, Mr. Goodyear, in some of the statements you brought forward?
6:20 p.m.
Chair, Emergency Management NGO Consortium of Canada
I would agree with that, Mr. Tolmie. That's why I often say that it seems that the military is the first line of defence, because it's boots on the ground.
As some of my colleagues have mentioned, it is possible that there are specialized skills that may require the military, but I think as a general rule, many of the things that are required during a request for federal assistance don't necessarily need the military; it is about having boots on the ground. In my opinion, NGOs can often help to fill that gap, as opposed to it going directly to the military first.
As you said, the military's mandate is to defend our country first. Many NGOs have over 100 years of experience responding to disasters and already have a presence in many of the communities from coast to coast.
6:25 p.m.
Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, CPC
There's a term that we use, “mission creep”, where you take an organization and then your mandate starts to expand. What happens is that you water down your mission. The mission of our Canadian Armed Forces is to defend our country, and I believe wholeheartedly in that.
Leapfrogging from that question, Mr. Burns, you're unique in your area. Would you say the disasters you're dealing with or the issues that you deal with are area-specific?
6:25 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Protective Services, Government of Yukon
No, I don't think so. In the Yukon, certainly, we have a bit of a special context, given our geographic isolation from other parts of the country, but, like other parts of the country, we deal with wildland fires and significant flooding events, and we're seeing an increase in things like landslides and earthquakes that affect critical infrastructure.
No, I don't think we're unique. These are not unique problems to the Yukon.
6:25 p.m.
Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, CPC
Maybe I'll rephrase the question. Would you say that those issues that you deal with are reoccurring?
6:25 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Protective Services, Government of Yukon
Yes, I would say they are reoccurring. I opened up talking a little bit about that robust wildland fire program. That's because these are a natural part of our environment.
What we need to do, and what we are doing in the Yukon very aggressively, is pursuing a prevention and mitigation type of approach. We know that fires are going to affect our communities. We can build infrastructure to defend ourselves against that fire, things like firebreaks, fuel treatment areas that form natural infrastructure around our communities and can reduce that risk. Similarly with floods, when I look at the flooding that's been plaguing us last year and this year, and I look back into the history of Yukon, I see that several of our communities have had the infrastructure constructed around their communities to protect them.
That is going to be our solution here, recognizing that these are not problems that should surprise us. These flooding events, we have to recognize, are going to be increasing, and we'll have to have an approach that deals with these in advance. We can do so with infrastructure and with the right amount of focus on our response coordination.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
6:25 p.m.
Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, CPC
Okay, thank you.
I have one last question for the professor. With the idea that the military has a mandate and that we have some challenges across this nation, would you say that it would be acceptable to have a separate organization outside of the military to deal with this, rather than crossing mandates and creating grey lines?
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Kerry-Lynne Findlay
I'll let you answer that, Professor Leuprecht, but we don't have much time.