National Defence Committee on June 6th, 2022

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Anand, for joining us today to answer some of our questions.

I know we recently did a study on recruitment and retention, and that's a really key issue we should be focusing a lot on. I think it has a lot to do with changing the culture of our Canadian Armed Forces as well. One of the first acts you undertook as Minister of National Defence was to accept Madam Arbour's interim report and recommendations to transfer sexual misconduct cases from the military justice system to the civilian justice system. She also recommended in her final report that the Criminal Code sexual offences be entirely removed from the jurisdiction of the military justice system and be dealt with and prosecuted in the civilian criminal court.

I know that on Monday you accepted Madam Arbour's final report, so I am wondering if you could let us know what specifically you'll be doing in regard to this recommendation.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for the question.

You're right—my top priority is to build an institution in which everyone feels safe, respected and protected. Madam Arbour's fifth recommendation in her final report is that Criminal Code sexual offences should be entirely removed from the jurisdiction of the military justice system and that they should be prosecuted in civilian criminal courts. This is a thoughtful and system-changing recommendation, and we will examine it in earnest.

As you pointed out in your question, I had already accepted the interim recommendation of Madam Arbour in the fall of 2021. I want to reiterate the progress that has been made in terms of accepting that interim recommendation.

First of all, in January, the RCMP began accepting transfers of new files from the Canadian Armed Forces.

Second, in February, Quebec's Ministry of Public Security advised their police force to accept new files and transfers based on their capacity and highlighted that a detailed protocol was in progress.

Third, several municipal and local police forces have also accepted transfers on an ad hoc basis. We have made progress, but of the 49 cases that were referred to provinces and territories, 23 cases were declined. That's why I wrote last week to provinces and territories urging them to exercise their jurisdiction and accept these cases. I made clear that the path forward requires collaboration with the civilian law enforcement and justice systems.

It is clear to me that more work needs to be done to implement Madam Arbour's interim recommendation in full, and that's why in my letter to provinces and territories, I confirmed that we are establishing a formal intergovernmental table to build durable transfer processes that will serve Canadian Armed Forces members well in the long term, and this will be a useful forum in which to discuss issues that have arisen so far.

Finally, I will also be consulting with survivors and victims groups to determine the path forward. This is something I have done since I was appointed as minister. It is a priority for me to be in touch with victims and survivors. I do look forward to informing Canadians and parliamentarians by no later than the end of this year on next steps.

Thank you.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Minister. I feel that we're in good hands with regard to this specific recommendation, and in terms of sexual misconduct cases and changing the culture of our armed forces.

That being said, I think the Canadian Armed Forces do an incredible job and have played a crucial role in the security of Canada and Europe, especially of late. One of the very many contributions the Canadian Armed Forces have made—a critical contribution that has most recently been made—are increasing NATO's deterrence posture in Europe through Operation Reassurance, in the face of Russian aggression.

A few months ago, you announced the extension and expansion of Operation Reassurance. I was hoping you could give us an update on the work that the Canadian Armed Forces have been doing in NATO's eastern flank.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Well, thank you—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but the member gave you 10 seconds to answer a very important question. I'm going to ask you to work it into a response to some other question, if you don't mind, please.

Madam Normandin, you have two and a half minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

The 29th recommendation in the Arbour report obviously drew my attention, as the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean is in my riding. That recommendation calls for a review of the role of military colleges.

The Royal Military College Saint-Jean is smaller than the one in Kingston, and different. Initiatives have been put in place there concerning misconduct, including hiring a full-time social worker. However, the structure is different. The Corporation du Fort St‑Jean handles maintenance of the site and services for students, and officer cadets at the Royal Military College Saint-Jean seem to be happier than those at the Royal Military College in Kingston.

Instead of throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater and considering the outright closure of the military colleges, would it not be appropriate to look at what initiatives have worked well at each one? What could improve the situation at the military colleges to be able, in particular, to maintain bilingualism? If we send everyone to civilian universities, there may be a loss of bilingualism. Justice Arbour noted that that's already a problem, and it might get worse.

In your work, Minister, are you seeking to determine what improvements can be made instead of outright closing the military colleges?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for your question.

I'd like to point out that I'm the Chancellor of the Royal Military College of Canada and that I visited both colleges for the convocation ceremony in May.

As you said, the 29th recommendation in Madam Arbour's report notes the need to address this problem. Of course, there's no recommendation to close the colleges; there's a recommendation to review the education program at the colleges. We'll therefore study that recommendation, of course, but we'll also respond to that recommendation to create a safer and more inclusive learning environment for our officer cadets, including by increasing the scope of the exit evaluation, as recommended by Madam Arbour.

Of course, no officer cadet should be a victim of harassment, misogyny or discrimination, but there is no recommendation to close the colleges or programs. The recommendation is to review the programs at the colleges to create and build educational institutions for safety, for our—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll have to leave it there, Madam Normandin. We've already blown through the extra minute we had.

Ms. Blaney, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you again, Minister. I have a question.

In 2015 and 2017, the Liberal government promised CAF personnel and veterans that it would eliminate the archaic and sexist marriage after 60 clause from the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act.

Six years ago, in 2015, DND reported to the REGS committee that it was amending legislation and regulations to remove the marriage after 60 clause and that it was on their to-do list. In 2020, the previous minister of defence wrote to the REGS committee stating that a legislative change to repeal the gold digger clause was needed, but didn't offer any commentary on how to move forward with that.

It is clear that DND knows how to fix the problem, but the department is not putting forward any amendments to do so until this government directs the officials to work on it.

I want to be really clear. There are some cases where couples have been together for well over 15 years. It means that they are either living in poverty, because this military service person is giving up a significant part of their pension so that their loved one can have something when they're gone, or they're predicting a poverty-stricken future for their partner. It is ridiculous, in my mind, because it puts mostly elderly women at risk of homelessness and poverty, and insults them by labelling them a gold digger.

I'm wondering, Minister, if you plan to eliminate this clause from the pension legislation, or will the government continue, as it has since 2015, to just drag its feet?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I thought this was the defence committee, not the natural resources committee.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's where it belongs: defence.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you. Ms. Blaney, I'll answer your question.

There's no question that the issue raised by the honourable member does impact spousal benefits for people who marry after the age of 60. We are looking at this issue, but it is dependent on central agencies, not DND alone.

I'll give the floor to my deputy minister, Mr. Matthews, to explain that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Could you respond very briefly, please?

[Bill Matthews, Deputy Minister of National Defence, Department of National Defence]

I can be very brief.

We're happy to follow up, but my recollection on this issue is that the lead is Veterans Affairs Canada. I'm happy to confirm that and confirm they are indeed leading.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Apparently Ms. Blaney doesn't agree with that.

[Bill Matthews]

That's why we'll confirm.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes.

Ms. Gallant, you have five minutes, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Will the cost of the NATO climate change and security centre of excellence count towards NATO's 2% of GDP allocation for defence?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We are continuing to ensure we have all of the resources in place, and we will be hosting the NATO climate change centre, as the Prime Minister announced in Spain last year.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I just want to know whether or not that's going to count towards the actual 2%, if it's going to go towards the climate change centre instead of actual defence equipment.

What's the estimated cost and projected allocation for converting land vehicles, like troop carriers, LAVs, Bisons and TAPVs, from fossil fuels to electric?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I will ask my my deputy minister to explain on that point, please.

[Bill Matthews]

I will be very quick on this one.

We're engaging with all of our suppliers to look at more efficient fuel for the vehicles. I cannot give you a cost at this stage, but we're in discussion with all providers to see what we can do to get more environmentally friendly fuel solutions.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'm happy to hear that we're looking at fuel as opposed to making the vehicles lighter, because that doesn't do the trick either. Take, for example, the TAPVs. They have a crew compartment that is armoured, but the engine block isn't. The frame is aluminum, and if they want to work on the engine, they have to actually stretch the frame. If they're dismounting because the engine is gone because of a bullet, there's no point in having the armoured troop compartment.

Will the NORAD modernization and early warning system be part of the Prime Minister's announcement when he attends NORAD this week?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for the question.

I will be attending NORAD with the Prime Minister. It's a priority for us and for our government. As I mentioned, we are investing over $8 billion for new defence spending, and this includes over $6 billion for, among other things, continental defence.

I'm in frequent contact with my U.S. counterpart, the Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, and we're building on the principles that former minister Sajjan agreed to with the same secretary last year, in terms of enhancing command and control, enhancing surveillance, and ensuring the maintenance and upgrading of the systems that protect our continent.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

With the threats from Putin on the use of nuclear devices, do we have enough of the radiation detection devices, both personal and for equipment, for the troops deployed to eastern Europe?