National Defence Committee on June 6th, 2022

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

This isn't isolated to one or two cases. People who bring them forth have connections to their LinkedIn, and then people who are in areas of command, and their underlings, start visiting, harassing and doing things to their social media to beat them down and have them withdraw their complaints. I wonder if you were aware of that.

What would you do, now that you do know, to put an end to the off-base harassment that goes on of the people who make the complaints?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I just have to intervene. That's an extremely difficult question to answer without some specific material.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

It's a general question. There's more than one case.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is the vice-chief able to respond to the question with some specificity?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I'm afraid I can't respond with any specificity, because I'm not aware of the specifics.

That type of intimidation of somebody who brings forward a complaint is certainly not acceptable. In those instances, where it appears that complainants are being intimidated or harassed, it's important that those individuals are held accountable for that type of behaviour.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mrs. Gallant, if in fact you have some information that would help the vice-chief respond to your question in a meaningful and detailed way, can you forward it to her?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I shall.

It's more or less the aspect of a closed loop system, particularly with students who go to RMC. They lodge their complaint. They get an assisting officer. The assisting officer ultimately ends up being the judge, so they don't really have free recourse or representation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I take the point, but for the vice-chief that's a pretty difficult question to answer without having a little more detail.

I'm going to go to Mr. Robillard for five minutes, please.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question may be for Mr. Matthews.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the destabilizing Russian presence in cyberspace have highlighted the need to strengthen our cyber defences. In these main estimates, the department is seeking $798.5 million, a net increase of $83.9 million compared with last year's main estimates.

Could you tell us some more about what the Communications Security Establishment is doing to protect Canadian cyberspace and our national interests?

[Bill Matthews]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I'll ask Ms. Bruce to answer the question. It would be better for her to answer, since she is the head of that organization.

Ms. Bruce, you have the floor.

[Shelly Bruce]

Good afternoon.

Thank you very much for your question.

I would reinforce that our budget is significant. It's almost $800 million and a 12% increase over last year. I mentioned earlier that some of that funding is for cryptographic equipment, but also to increase the security and reliability of Government of Canada systems.

More generally, though, there is an investment for our foreign intelligence program. Based on our mandate, we do have a really interesting aperture into what is happening from the cyber perspective, for example, what the cyber-threats are that are playing out, especially those linked to the Russia-Ukraine conflict. We are seeing what kinds of activities are happening for intelligence-gathering purposes, which ones are disruptive, which ones are destructive and which ones are in preparation and planning phases.

From that information, we are able to pass that information, the cyber-threat detail indicators, both to Ukraine and our allied NATO partners but also to Canadian critical infrastructure owners and operators. Having this information ahead of any materialized threats allows them to protect their systems and to put in place defences that can withstand some of the attacks that we might anticipate.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Robillard.

We have about 10 minutes. Let me just lead off with a couple of questions that I have.

Members maybe could indicate a minute or two of questions that they might have as well, while we have this group assembled.

With regard to the $500 million that's allocated to Ukraine, will that count towards the 2% GDP?

[Bill Matthews]

I may have to check with the CFO.

My suspicion is not.... She's nodding yes. She says, yes, it will, so there we go.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Well, we got a yes and a no on the same question.

[Bill Matthews]

I would go with the CFO on this one, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's probably true. Okay.

Between the estimates to date and the main estimates for 2023, it barely moves the needle as far as the 2% goal that we've all committed to. I'm a little concerned. We are in a war situation. We probably are not as aware of it in North America, but for those of us who were in Europe, World War III has started.

I just wonder whether, with this budget presentation, we continue to have the luxury of time, given that we are going to be asked to step up in a fairly substantial way. That is a foreseeable expectation.

My question, as much as it is a comment, is that your budget presentation barely moves the needle towards 2%. Can you give this committee some explanation of that?

[Bill Matthews]

Certainly, Mr. Chair.

The estimates reflect what the government has set aside in previous budgets. They effectively play catch-up. We did mention earlier today some of the potential coming attractions, including the defence policy update, as well as work on continental defence and NORAD modernization. Those would be key future indicators of the government's intent in terms of spending on defence.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

When you do your defence policy update, are you going to do that in isolation from other security concerns?

[Bill Matthews]

Can you clarify that question?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

For instance, there are a lot of security concerns that CSIS looks after and that CSE looks after. CSE is obviously here. However, it's becoming security writ large, that things that previously fell into a neat little military silo don't necessarily fit there.

When you're doing your defence policy update, are you also taking into consideration—and maybe making it a coequal concern—larger security concerns?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, what I would say at this stage is that a key part of the policy update is any update to the threat environment. As you just touched on, the threat environment is certainly more complex than it was. We do engage with relevant partners in terms of properly articulating that threat. What it will lead to: stay tuned.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, exactly. Stay tuned, and it's moving very quickly.

I have a final question.

Mr. Crosby, regarding military inflation, we're obviously living in an inflationary environment in our non-military lives. I'm assuming that the demand on military equipment is even more extraordinary, given the state of the war.

Can you give us a working idea of what military inflation will be for this year? Will it be 6%, 7% or greater than that?

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, it's recognized, as the question alludes to, that we're going to see inflation certainly higher than the consumer price index, which is typical for defence procurement, and higher than we would have forecasted a year ago.

Our allies are also seeing the same sorts of trends as we move forward. Industry has only so much capacity to respond to the demands they are seeing now from various countries, for various capabilities. That could yet result in higher inflation than we expect. We'll have to wait and see how that plays out in the coming months.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

But, Mr. Crosby, that's almost a certainty. We're going to be spending more money for less product, and given the budget that's presented here, inflation will eat it rather rapidly.

I'm using up time from colleagues and they're going to yell at me, I'm sure.

I see that Madam Normandin has a one-minute question.