We have slipped, even within the Five Eyes. I think we have come to be seen as the fourth most aggressive member of the Five Eyes when it comes to combatting Chinese interference. New Zealand is basically not doing anything. We're at the back of the pack. We see that in terms of the meetings that are taking place and the times that Canada's name is referenced when people are talking about the new alliances and new multilateral groupings that are being formed.
That has to do with two things. One is that we're seen to be people who see foreign policy as transmission. It's sending messages, but not so much listening. It's largely rhetorical. Secondly, because we have allowed our military capability to diminish over time, we're simply not able to be present. Increasingly, as new alliances and new multilateral groupings are formed, membership depends on what you bring to the table. We're not seen as bringing enough.