National Defence Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2022

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

To briefly add to that, again, these lists exist. The armed forces of both countries have been reviewing them for a number of months, if not longer. What I've been told generally is that Canada obviously specializes...and has a large land and sea border, so any kind of surveillance systems we could be sharing with them would be particularly useful in terms of detecting [Technical difficulty—Editor] are going to invade. We have a speciality in that, particularly in the high-tech sector.

It's all about, as you said, putting a higher cost on the Russian calculation to invade. We know that the trusted relationship between the two armed forces means that those discussions are ongoing at a very secure level.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you for that clarity.

Just on a follow-up, would that surveillance technology, especially for land and sea, for example, be considered lethal defence weapons? Again, we keep getting asked for the specific lethal weapons. Just as an example, if land and border surveillance have been working with the forces there, would that fall into the lethal category?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

Again, I can't speculate on the exact names of those kinds of systems. I can just say that the Ukrainian and Canadian armies have clear communication on what they need and what can be used. I would just have to leave it at that in terms of my comments.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Fair enough. Like I said, if we're being asked for lethal, it doesn't sound to me that surveillance would be considered lethal. I was just trying to get a little clarification, then, on what the specific ask is and that determination.

In terms of—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Regrettably, I'm going to have to cut you off, Ms. O'Connell.

You have two and a half minutes, Madam Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to continue my conversation with Mr. Jolicoeur, who has already talked about various possibilities for Canadian intervention. We've talked quite a bit about weapons, for example. We talked a little about the possibility of military intervention, but also about the risks associated with it. I would also like to hear what he has to say about other possibilities for intervention, such as economic sanctions, increased support through operations such as Unifier. I would like him to rank the risks associated with each of these possibilities as well as the effects they may have on the conflict.

[Pierre Jolicoeur]

Good afternoon, Ms. Normandin. Thank you for your question.

In terms of the type of sanctions or other measures that Canada can take to increase pressure on Russian authorities without necessarily being in Ukraine itself, Canada can adopt additional economic sanctions. We can identify Russian personnel, including oligarchs or supporters, people who are close to Vladimir Putin, or Vladimir Putin himself, and increase sanctions, freeze the economic assets of these people. Of course, Russia's great fortunes aren't necessarily stored in Canada, it's more in London or in other banking systems abroad. Such economic sanctions freeze the assets and certainly increase the economic pressure on Russia. This is the type of action that Canada can take without too many consequences, but that increases [Technical difficulty—Editor]. That's the kind of thing that is highly likely. In this case, Canada would have to do it not alone, but in coordination with the other NATO countries, and Ukraine, of course, to coordinate a simultaneous and coherent effort.

We can also increase support to Ukraine, increase funding. Even if we don't want to deploy troops, we can still support the Ukrainian government with a financial contribution. We can also send weapons, including lethal weapons. These are also means we can use.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there, unfortunately, Madam Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I'm just going to pick it right back up from Madam Normandin.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Well, that's good. It was a good line of questioning.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I would like to hear as well from Ihor about the sanctions and the supports. Canada has talked about using those potentials. Even just today, one of the committee members said that we're ready and willing. I'm not sure what's holding that back.

Mr. Jolicoeur, you said that NATO allies have to coordinate those sanctions. Maybe both of you could quickly talk about those.

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I'll just say quickly that sanctioning Russian oligarchs through the Magnitsky legislation is something we can do more of. We can certainly step up to do more. For example, we know of people like Oleg Sentsov. These are Ukrainian political prisoners who were taken into the Russian domestic system. He's the most well known and was released, but there are many hundreds of others. Those people are prosecuted and jailed by specific people within the Russian Federation.

Those kinds of personal sanctions, which mean that those individuals and their families can no longer travel or participate in financial transactions in the West, are what we think would make a real difference. Again, we appreciate Canada's commitment to sanctions, but we're saying that we have not matched the strength of the American and EU allies on those in the last number of years.

[Pierre Jolicoeur]

To add to the answer that was just given, the importance of coordinating with NATO countries is that if an additional sanctions regime is adopted, it isn't really Canada that will bear the brunt, but rather our European allies.

Imagine, for instance, preventing the import of energy sources from Russia. The European consumer countries are the energy customers. It would put great pressure on Russia, but the European partner countries would also be affected. We would like to see if there are partners who can replace Russia as an energy supplier. Canada could perhaps make a small effort in this respect, but Canada has trouble exporting our oil resources because of the lack of pipeline networks, a long‑standing internal Canadian dispute. So we would have to find—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, again, we're going to have to leave it there. I feel bad. It seems that's my role in life: to cut off professors.

Professor Jolicoeur, I apologize to you.

For the final two questions, we'll go to Madame Gallant for five minutes, and then Mr. Zuberi for five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

First of all, Mr. Michalchyshyn, you mentioned false flags. In the news this week, we had our state broadcaster say that the Russians were behind the truckers on Parliament Hill right now. They were calling it a plot by the Russians.

How likely is it that they are behind these people who seem to be grassroots individuals there for their own causes?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

RT and Sputnik are two of the state-owned Russian channels in Canada, both on cable and online, and they sow a lot of disunity and disinformation on Western democracies. They are what we believe to be state-sponsored media. We would urge this committee and others to change the ways those media are allowed to broadcast within Canada, because I think they are trying to undercut our parliamentary democracy in many ways, as well as via the other covert kinds of media operations that might be going on.

Really, we think going after the state-sponsored media of the Russian Federation is the most powerful way to ensure that there is good information about Canada and around the world.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

It was actually our CBC that was making that report, but has Russia Today had any involvement lately in Canada, from your perspective, in terms of riling up the Russian population with respect to Ukraine?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I'm fortunate that I don't have to watch much Russia Today, but I know that in the past they've gone and done things like harass our community leaders at their homes and community centres and perpetuated some of the false disinformation narratives, when they send so-called “reporters” out to Canada.

Therefore, unfortunately, or actually fortunately, I don't have any current examples, because I'm too busy speaking with you and with other Canadians such that I don't have to watch RT, but maybe the professor has some other comments on that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Jolicoeur, do you have any idea, since past actions are sort of a prediction, with regard to the timing of the Russian aggression in Ukraine should they decide to start to take land? Twice now, it was during the Olympics, and we have the Olympics just starting recently. Do you predict that it is fairly imminent?

[Pierre Jolicoeur]

Thank you for your question.

As for when an intervention might happen, I think that Russia will want to spare the Chinese authorities and wait until after the Olympic Games. As for whether military action is likely to be taken, Vladimir Putin is used to surprises. The intervention against Georgia in 2008 took place during the Olympic Games in China. The “five‑day war” in August 2008 took place while the international community's attention was focused on Beijing. Will this scenario be repeated? I can't say, but I would be surprised. I think Russia is trying to be gentle with China because China is a major support of Russia at the moment, so much so that if measures and sanctions are adopted and the energy that Russia provides to European countries is cut off, for example, China would be Russia's best partner to help it bear the economic burden weight of such decisions. I think Russia is trying to spare China and could therefore wait.

Having said that, I would like to come back to something the other speaker said. Russia is a master of misinformation. Arte and Sputnik are the primary vehicles that Russia uses to try to influence the behaviour of Russian Canadians and Canadians in general. It may be that news stations like the CBC will pick up news that is broadcast on Arte, so it's possible that Russia is somewhat behind the support for truckers protesting in Ottawa, indirectly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mrs. Gallant.

For the final question, we have Mr. Zuberi. Welcome to the committee.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thanks for having me.

I'd like to put forth this first question concerning Canada's role in NATO, the new Operation Reassurance, and how that compares to other NATO nations.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

To whom do you want that directed?

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

My question is for Mr. Jolicoeur.

[Pierre Jolicoeur]

Could you repeat the question? It's not clear to me. To what extent—