National Defence Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

As we heard earlier, the Premier of Nova Scotia requested additional troops, up to 1,000. At the same time, we've also heard from a number of experts who told the committee that the military is being called in far too often and there is too much reliance on the CAF.

Have you heard this criticism before? If so, how long have you been hearing this?

What is your opinion on that? Is there too much reliance on the CAF in responding to these crises?

[Deryck Trehearne]

That's another great question.

As I said earlier, this was really amplified during COVID.

In the past, people have evolved.... The provinces have become stronger in many ways of responding, thereby needing less federal help, but at the same time, as my numbers and data point out, we have had an extreme number of requests for federal assistance and deployments of the armed forces and rangers to help.

That's a good and a bad thing, in the sense that provinces have become more aware of the supports they can ask for and more literate in terms of the EM system in Canada. They're building their own capacity, but they also know when and how to ask for help. Certainly, COVID has made that very clear to people.

Then, of course, the public also knows that the armed forces can be deployed. During successive waves of COVID, social media would light up with calls for the deployment of the armed forces, even if they weren't necessarily needed based on the facts on the ground or discussions with the province or territory. Many times, there's pressure in the system to deploy the CAF and for provinces to seek help, so that's an interesting dynamic.

It's not really for me, as a public servant, to judge whether it's too much or too little, but certainly, in the last couple of years.... We are all hoping that it somehow goes back to “normal” and that we're back in the world of five or 10 a year, but I don't know that's going to be the case, given the trends we're all looking at, the finite Canadian capacity and people's awareness of how and when to help and how to ask for help.

I hope that helps.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Normandin, you can't get in a second question with four seconds left.

You have two and a half minutes, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you. I'll try to do this in two and a half minutes as well.

We're just reading that General Wayne Eyre this morning ordered “an immediate halt to all non-essential activities in favour of boosting military recruitment and retention”.

This, I think, speaks exactly to why we're here today and what we're talking about. How would that order impact where you go from here on your RFA stance?

[Deryck Trehearne]

That order he issued this morning...?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

[Deryck Trehearne]

I would need to understand exactly what that order implies or what is directed. I'm not up to speed on what that announcement is. I'll have to revert back to my colleagues at CAF, but I think it's clear—and General Eyre has made it clear—that, internationally, events in the last couple of years, COVID, recruitment challenges and other issues are constraining their capacity.

We'll have to work with our partners to understand the impacts, as we do, and that evolved through various waves of COVID where, again, we looked to other capacities, such as the humanitarian workforce, to supplement the need without drawing on the CAF further. We'll continue that dynamic. As I said, we have an outstanding partnership, a sort of familial bond with the CAF. We work very closely with the strategic joint staff and General Eyre's staff in assessing what the art of the possible is. We'll continue to do that.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Can you elaborate quickly on how this is different for the CAF versus the Canadian Rangers? The CAF was deployed from base. The Canadian Rangers are not as structured as that. Can you talk about how you deal with RFAs in that regard?

[Deryck Trehearne]

I'll try to make this quick.

The RFA process is very similar for the rangers and the regular force.

The beauty of the rangers, obviously—and they have played a huge role in support of first nations—is that many of these folks are in the communities they serve. They are trusted. They are culturally aware. They are readily at hand, and they can perform a number of tasks in support of the community. The RFA process is very similar, although it's slightly lighter, obviously, and a little quicker in terms of the administration of it when we know there's a need in a certain community—and many first nations communities had outbreaks, obviously—where we can ignite the rangers to help.

They also have a job to do, though, in the service of the Canadian Armed Forces, so we also look to the Red Cross and others to supplement them.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Again, we're going to have to leave it there.

Mr. Allison, you have five minutes.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our guests for being here.

I want to go back to a response you had to Mr. Fisher in talking about airlift capacities—one thing that is asked for the most. When Mr. Fadden talked to us, and obviously when we're looking at CAF, it's very expensive. You talked about contracts as well, and the fact that sometimes to get them out, it's a long process. In other words, it's not like you can turn them around as quickly as you'd like to.

Is there a possible way that you could have a memorandum of understanding or have people on retainer? I guess that's a term for lawyers. You could have some capacity, because you talk about these cyclical events and that seems to be things that happen over and over again like forest fires, flooding, etc. Talk to us. You're maybe already doing some of that stuff.

However, when we look at that critical airlift, I think Mr. Fadden would say delivery through the CAF is more expensive than potentially looking at outside. Give me your thoughts on how that all fits together.

[Deryck Trehearne]

I'll try.

Again, with CAF being a force of last resort, we try not to...but in a life-and-limb situation, as I cited in Mathias Colomb or others, like Bearskin Lake in Ontario, the CAF will respond very quickly and they have assets they can do that with.

In terms of their firefighting capacity, the provinces also have huge links and MOUs with various airlines, I think, for commercial capacity, so we also look to that. Again, that can be reimbursed by federal dollars.

As I said, we have often worked with PSPC. We don't have standing offers, because this gets back to the nature of emergencies in Canada, where locally and provincially, they may have those assets. For instance, the Ministry of Natural Resources in Ontario has a huge number of those kinds of assets, either that they physically own and run or that are at their disposal during the fire season.

The first choice is to get into the commercial assets before we get to the CAF, and that can often be part of the dynamic in that realm. There is quite a bit of commercial capacity available in Canada. As I said, in Ontario last year, my friends in Indigenous Services Canada, us and the province spent millions of dollars on commercial airlines and evacuating people.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

That's great, and that leads to my second question.

You talked about cyclical events that are occurring more often, so my question is around preparation by the federal government in terms of critical infrastructure, whatever that may be. We talked about airlift capacity, which is one thing, but as you see floods or fires and these kinds of events reoccurring, is there something that the government is doing to try to build the critical infrastructure, so it's less of a drain or we're more ready or more active?

You talked about the fact that provinces are building that capacity. I'm just wondering how the feds fit in with that.

[Deryck Trehearne]

Absolutely, I think the short answer is yes.

Infrastructure Canada has billions of dollars at its disposal, and there are programs specifically for adaptation and emergency preparedness as well. That's upfront mitigation on the need for help, whether it's dikes or reinforcing dams or roadways.

You're absolutely right. There are very significant provincial and federal investments in those areas, which I'm sure my colleagues at Infrastructure or others could speak to. The need to respond is much different if you have prepared up front.

We have certain first nations where there have been infrastructure investments that have negated the need to evacuate folks in some cases. Those are the things that we all need to be focusing on. However, that's up front and it's long term.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West, ON]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

Ms. Lambropoulos, you have the final five minutes, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us here today to answer some of our questions.

Something you mentioned earlier to one of my colleagues struck me a little bit.

In the past, before 2020, you were saying that between five and 10 requests for federal assistance were made every year, and since 2020, it's been over 200. The drive for that has been because of social media. The public may be getting loud about requiring federal assistance. Of course, rightfully so, you're hoping that the number goes down and that this movement on social media comes to a slowdown.

What is it that you think is making people feel this level of panic and that the local and provincial levels are not necessarily able to deal with these crises? What is it that's making them feel that the capacity isn't enough? How can Public Safety work with provinces and the local levels to make sure that people don't feel this strain? What's changed exactly in the last couple of years?

[Deryck Trehearne]

Yes, it's a very interesting question.

I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but I would say, as just a quick point of clarification, that the 200 RFAs are not just driven by social media. COVID was exceptional. Having said that, we know that the trends are bad in some areas, and COVID was exceptional. The numbers will reflect that.

We don't really know yet what “normal” will look like once we get past COVID. However, I would say that some of those things are exacerbated by social media, concerns in the media and concerns in the public. I'm not an expert in that field. There are significant communications strategies that Public Safety has, and the provinces have to try to communicate emergency management literacy and awareness to Canadians. There's significant programming. Those are always helpful. Public Safety does a lot of that. I'm sure my colleagues in communications would be happy to come and talk about it.

I think people know that there's a place where they can put up their hands and voice their opinions as well, and they take that opportunity, but I also think people understand and have learned lessons over the last few years about how this all works and who can help. I think there's a little bit of all of that in there, but let's face it: There were significant events under way as well.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Definitely.

You also mentioned that currently the biggest worry you have at Public Safety is the increase in hurricanes, especially after hurricane Fiona, which was unprecedented. You said there is currently an emergency management strategy in place to advance preparedness and mitigation. Amongst the list of things that would need to be done is the list of capabilities we currently have so that we know what's missing. What else would you say is at the top of that list of what's needed in order to prepare? What steps should be taken in order to help lessen the impacts of future disasters?

[Deryck Trehearne]

That's a great question.

Hurricanes are only one of my worries. They are certainly a concern. The prediction was that this year was going to be more active than normal, and here we are. Floods and fires are equally affected by climate change. I think, as a country, we need to have a conversation about our overall readiness and our overall capacity to respond to these types of things. We've seen some very unique events in the last couple of years—very unique—and I think we've all felt, in every province and territory, some challenges.

I think overall capacity across the board—up front and in the middle of a response, and capabilities across Canada federally, provincially and municipally—we need to have a conversation about that. The trends are telling us that. As I've said many times, my small view here is that we've been lucky historically. Floods and fires, we get, but on these other rodents of unusual size or strange events that defy categorization—an atmospheric river or the derecho that hit Ottawa—if you don't know they are coming the way they are coming, you can only respond.

Across the board, we need to talk about our preparedness, our analysis and our capacity to respond as a country, and federally as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I think that's a good place to leave it, Ms. Lambropoulos.

Hopefully, these hearings are a contribution to that conversation. I particularly appreciate it.

Before I let you go, my rough math tells me that with 157 calls for CAF assistance in the last two and half years, that works out to something like every five or six days you're on the phone to CAF saying that you need them for this or that. Is that within the realm of possibility?

[Deryck Trehearne]

I've used actually similar language myself, Mr. Chair. At one point, I think we were doing an RFA of some kind every other day or every three days for two years.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Wow. Okay. I appreciate that.

Again, I thank you for your contribution to this conversation. It's been very helpful. Hopefully, we'll get one of your bosses in here fairly shortly.

[Deryck Trehearne]

I'm happy to help. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll suspend for a couple of minutes while the clerk does whatever the clerk does.