National Defence Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call the meeting to order.

I know it's an unheard of concept to start a minute or two early, but we are all in our places, with bright, shining faces. Hopefully, we can get going.

I want to welcome the revamped Conservatives to the committee. There are three out of four. Welcome to the committee.

I also want to take this opportunity to welcome General Eyre and his colleagues. It is so nice to see you in the flesh, as opposed to on a screen. We're looking forward to what you have to say.

I'll say to our colleagues that when it comes to questioning, I'm rather hoping that we can stay on the subject matter that General Eyre and his colleagues have been invited to speak to us on. This is one of many areas of subject matter that the committee is interested in. I am hoping we can focus on that for at least this morning.

Finally, the Library of Parliament has put forward a work plan for this particular study. I would be interested in feedback from the committee prior to locking in the proposed set of witnesses to follow this presentation.

With that, I will ask General Eyre for his five minutes. Again, on behalf of the committee, thank you for appearing. Also—trying not to sound trite about it—thank you, sir and your colleagues, for your service. Particularly in the last year, it has been extraordinarily difficult. I'm sure it's been the challenge of your and your colleagues' careers.

Thank you for that. We look forward to what you have to say.

[General Wayne D. Eyre, Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Good morning, Mr. Chair, and thank you for this opportunity to discuss the security of Canada's Arctic, the threats we face and the actions that we're taking to address those threats.

With me this morning, we have Major-General Peter Scott, chief of staff of Canadian joint operations command; Major-General Michael Wright, commander of Canadian Forces intelligence command; and Mr. Jonathan Quinn, who is our director general for continental defence in the department.

In this meeting's second hour, you will hear from Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee, commander, Royal Canadian Navy, Lieutenant-General Eric Kenny, commander, Royal Canadian Air Force, and Major-General Conrad Mialkowski, deputy commander, Canadian Army.

Mr. Chair, as you are aware, we are living in a time of great disruption.

The world is more dangerous now than at any time since the Cold War, and maybe even since the eve of the Second World War. The rules-based international order that has underpinned our peace and prosperity for 80 years is fragile and threatened and needs to be defended. Strategic competition once again dominates the geopolitical landscape.

Rapid technological advances are changing the character of conflict. All of this upheaval is set against the ever-present backdrop of climate change, which has improved access to resources and shipping routes in the region.

Russia's illegal war in Ukraine not only is an alarming demonstration of Russia's disregard for established international borders, but also has important implications for Arctic security.

Russia has made it clear that it considers the Arctic of great importance to its security and its economic interests—and continues to increase its military presence there.

China, which has declared itself a near-Arctic state, also has aspirations of northern influence. Its polar silk road ambitions include using the northern sea route through Russia's Arctic to import energy and export goods. Russia seeks to undermine a rules-based international order, while China seeks to bend it to its advantage.

The complexity of this landscape cannot be overstated. Even in the depths of the Cold War, we had the luxury of being able to laser-focus on a single strategic competitor. Now we must face the reality that we live in a tri-polar security environment where liberal democracies must divide their attention between two competitors who employ different strategies but pose the same danger to this security and stability that we have enjoyed, for the most part, for generations since the Second World War. They are the security and stability that have underpinned our prosperity here at home.

As Russia, China and a host of other countries express interest in the Arctic, the politics of the region become more complex, and the danger of escalation sparked by miscalculation, miscommunication or misunderstanding becomes more acute.

This summer, I hosted my fellow chiefs of defence from Arctic nations as we met for the first time since Russia's invasion of Crimea in 2014. My counterparts from Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden and the United States and I all agreed that this forum is more necessary now than ever. We plan to resume meeting regularly to advance our co-operation, collaboration and information sharing.

To defend the Canadian Arctic, our northern approaches to the south, and our sovereignty over the region, require a sustained and visible military presence there.

I see no real threat today to our territorial sovereignty; nor do I see one in the near future, but given the upheaval and disruption I have spoken of, we cannot assume this will always be the case. If the day arrives when that sovereignty is threatened, our presence there is limited.

It's reassuring to note that Canada and the United States have agreed to modernize NORAD, increasing NORAD's ability to sustain a presence and its capacity and domain awareness in the north.

This will complement initiatives being pursued, such as the DeWolf-class Arctic and offshore patrol ships, the Nanisivik naval facility, improved satellite communication platforms, future fighter aircraft, remotely piloted aerial systems, and enhancements to the training and effectiveness of the Canadian Rangers.

But we can, and must, do more. For example, our hold on our Arctic would be much more secure with greater subsurface domain awareness at sea, and with greater capacity to deploy forces from the south strategically and efficiently on land.

Mr. Chair, preserving the security of Canada's Arctic is a significant challenge, a challenge that will only become greater in the decades to come. Given the challenges of developing capabilities and infrastructure to operate in that harsh environment, it will take decades to be ready.

Once again, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this challenge with you. We look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, General Eyre. I appreciate you respecting the time limitations, and I hope my colleagues will do similarly.

Mr. Bezan, welcome to the committee, You have six minutes, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Chair. I'm happy to be back on the defence file.

I want to thank General Eyre and all our commanders who are joining us today for your service to Canada, for keeping us the true north strong and free.

General Eyre, would you classify Vladimir Putin and the Russian Federation, and President Xi and the Chinese Communist Party, as predictable or unpredictable at this point in time with their geopolitical aspirations?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, that is a very difficult question, one that our partners around the world have been wrestling with to determine whether they are predictable, they are rational, they are reasonable. I think, given the nature of the question, I'm going to turn it over to the commander of our Canadian Forces intelligence command, General Wright.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Because I have a lot of questions, can I just ask that he be as succinct as possible?

[Major-General Michael Wright, Commander, Canadian Forces Intelligence Command and Chief of Defence Intelligence, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would say that they are both revisionist authoritarian regimes that are seeking to reshape the rules-based international order to fit their world view. They are predictable in that we can listen to what Vladimir Putin said prior to the invasion of Ukraine and we can listen to what President Xi said just in the last few days about taking Taiwan by whatever means necessary.

However, there is also the unpredictability, but as General Eyre mentioned, this is the importance of our relationship with the Five Eyes to ensure that we are tracking all of the actions of both Russia and China.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

Based upon that answer, and based upon what we're seeing in the Taiwan Strait and what we're seeing in the war in Ukraine and the genocide that the Russian forces are committing there, is Canada in the position right now that if things heated up in our Arctic, we'd be able to cover off all three coastlines in making sure that we're protected here as well as able to assist our allies abroad?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, that question speaks to the threat, and right now, today, we don't see a clear and present threat to our sovereignty—not today, not this week, not next week, not next year. However, in the decades to come, that threat, that tenuous hold that we have on our sovereignty at the extremities of this nation, is going to come under increasing challenge. That's why it's important to invest in capabilities today that will be with us for decades to come.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I agree with that. We need to be making those investments, and part of our Arctic sovereignty is also our responsibility to NORAD. Are we pulling our weight when it comes down to modernizing NORAD and investing in updating our North Warning System? You've talked about, just now, having subsurface capabilities, and I'm assuming you're talking about having under-ice capabilities, meaning submarines that can stay under the ice and do the proper surveillance up there.

What type of planning is going on right now, and then to follow up with that, what are we doing to increase our readiness and our Arctic warfare training?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, there is a lot in that question to unpack.

Firstly, NORAD modernization is moving ahead. It's focused on the air domain for the most part, with investments in sensors to replace the North Warning System specifically with over-the-horizon radar. It's focused on command and control systems, which are very important to bring all those sensors together so that we have decision-quality information. It's focused on infrastructure specifically, so that our forward operating locations in the north are ready to receive more aircraft. It's also focused on research and development. As the pace of technological change is accelerating, we have to invest more into research and development so that we can keep pace.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Just to interrupt you for a minute, you're talking about investments in our forward operating locations. Are we starting to make the changes now or planning to make the changes for our new fighter aircraft, the F-35?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, yes, absolutely. That's one reason these forward operating locations need to be upgraded, the technical details of which I will pass to the commander of the Canadian air force in the next session.

I'll just ask Mr. Quinn if he has anything to add on NORAD.

[Jonathan Quinn, Director General, Continental Defence Policy, Department of National Defence]

Thanks, sir. I think you've covered the basics of what was announced in June.

As the chief said, Mr. Chair, the real key focus of the NORAD modernization announcement is the aerospace domain. We certainly recognize that there are other domains where we're challenged by potential adversaries, so those—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When we're looking at the North Warning System, Mr. Quinn and General Eyre, are we looking at making sure that the entire Arctic archipelago is going to be covered with land-based systems as well as, potentially, more satellites?

Secondly, is ballistic missile defence part of the discussion on NORAD modernization, knowing that we have more air-breathing aerial threats coming in the form of more missiles, cruise missiles and hypersonic missiles?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a very important question for which he has 30 seconds left to answer.

[Jonathan Quinn]

I can start, sir, on the surveillance.

The intention is certainly to have over-the-horizon radar that will cover out to the extremities of the Arctic archipelago. There is actually a polar over-the-horizon radar system as well that was part of the announcement. It would see over the pole. There is still some residual research and development to do to resolve some of the issues presented by the atmosphere at that very high latitude, but it's fully funded, so once that research and development is in place, there would be a High Arctic over-the-horizon radar station as well.

As you said, Mr. Chair, the intention would be to have full coverage over Canadian territory and approaches.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Ms. O'Connell, you have six minutes, please.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

General Eyre, I want to talk about some of the new commitments and co-operation with indigenous populations.

I believe a contract was signed in April of this year to maintain the North Warning System. Can you or anybody on the panel speak about why involvement with indigenous communities.... One that I can see, even being a civilian in this space, is the retention and recruitment of personnel to maintain northern watch or security measures. Why this partnership and this new commitment to engage with indigenous populations in the north? Is it perhaps that it will set Canada apart in terms of our expertise?

As well, how do you see that continuing and perhaps growing?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I'll say a few comments, Mr. Chair, before passing it over to Mr. Quinn.

First, consultation is extremely important as we go forward with all of these projects to make sure that we have excellent mutual understanding and respect so that there are no surprises.

Second, we need to look for win-win solutions. When we invest in security in the north, it has to be security not just for the entire country, but more specifically for the north as well. At the same time, it has to bring economic benefits and job opportunities to those communities in the far north and open up other opportunities such as communications.

[Jonathan Quinn]

Mr. Chair, I have just a couple of additional points.

As the chief said, consultation is paramount. We have done some initial consultations with indigenous leadership and provincial and territorial governments during the course of the development of the proposals for NORAD modernization. I got lots of fantastic feedback about what the local priorities are, and then we overlaid that with the Canadian Armed Forces requirements to proactively seek out opportunities for mutual benefit—

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I'm sorry; I don't mean to cut you off. It's just that I'm limited on time.

On that, I understand the consultation piece, but it's the expertise in living there. General Eyre, you spoke about the unique needs of infrastructure and the brutal weather conditions in the north. Would you not see the opportunity with that engagement as not just a consultation piece and the community benefit but the expertise on the land itself and the extreme weather conditions? Could you speak on any considerations there?

Again, I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off. I just have a limited amount of time.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, the honourable member is absolutely right that we need to tap into that expertise, especially in terms of infrastructure construction. It's very difficult in terms of making that infrastructure durable and sustainable into the future with the changing circumstances related to climate change.

Jonathan, is there anything you want to add?

[Jonathan Quinn]

Mr. Chair, the only thing I would add is that it's really clear that the challenges that the Canadian Armed Forces have in operating in the north are much the same as the challenges that northerners have in terms of infrastructure deficit, broadband access and that sort of thing. It's another reason, as we invest in resolving those challenges for the Canadian Armed Forces, that we expect lots of opportunities to help address those challenges for northerners as well and develop those solutions together.

As you say, it means capitalizing on the knowledge and the expertise of northerners.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Perfect. Thank you.

I'd like to follow up on a question that Mr. Bezan raised too. We heard in different studies, and in our ongoing study in terms of an update with the illegal invasion of Russia into Ukraine.... One thing that came out from witness testimony was a discussion around Russia and China. Both have eyes on the north and the Arctic, and while the saying is “ the enemy of my enemy is my friend”, when it comes to the Arctic, they may both have competing interests.

Considering we're in an open session, I know that there may be limitations on what can be openly discussed, but given the situation in Russia with Ukraine and the situation with China and Taiwan, do you see that landscape changing in terms of their ability to focus on the Arctic, or that competition, so to speak?