Evidence of meeting #42 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was infrastructure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Earlier, Mr. Kikkert, in your presentation, you mentioned the identification of vessels travelling in Canadian waters by rangers on shore. I'm not sure if I understood you correctly on whether Mr. Pedersen was, in fact, involved in the operation that we have heard about at committee. We talked about the limitation of domain awareness by the navy.
Are ground-based rangers the most effective way to identify ships in Canadian waters?
12:45 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Public Policy and Governance, Brian Mulroney Institute of Government, St. Francis Xavier University, As an Individual
I think that's a great question. It's one that requires a bit of an understanding of how complex this space is right now. There's a lot going on that contributes to our domain awareness at the ground level up, or the sea level up.
We have Inuit marine monitors who go out as part of a Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated program to keep their eyes on vehicle traffic. That New Zealand sailing boat that moved to the Northwest Passage was first spotted by Bobby Klengenberg of Cambridge Bay, who is an Inuit marine monitor. He got eyes on it from his cabin. He's one of Calvin's friends.
Second, there's the Coast Guard Auxiliary. They get the boats on the water. Yes, it's for search and rescue, but why not keep an eye on maritime traffic and on potential trouble spots, etc.?
Of course, the Canadian Rangers do this as well. They get out on the land, both as regular citizens who report back things they see to ranger headquarters, and also on actual exercises and operations.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thanks.
Indeed, Canadians are grateful to have that resource and to know that it could happen. Given the incredible amount of space, is that a foolproof system to have marine domain awareness across the Arctic?
12:45 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Public Policy and Governance, Brian Mulroney Institute of Government, St. Francis Xavier University, As an Individual
It's part of the puzzle. There are a lot of different components, from satellites to aircraft and ships that need to be doing the same thing. They do contribute. These grassroots-level organizations contribute to this broader picture.
If you don't mind, let me read a recommendation that Calvin has made. This was going to be one of his conclusions: “I'm not too concerned about a Russian ground invasion. That would likely result in the biggest search and rescue operation the north has ever seen. Still, the Canadian Armed Forces needs to be able to operate effectively in the north and to have the surveillance capabilities required to know what is going on in my homeland. We need the infrastructure to support these efforts. We need airstrips that can be used by the military's aircraft and the deepwater ports required by its ships.”
These kinds of grassroots organizations that we've talked about, Inuit marine monitors, the Coast Guard Auxiliary, rangers and Inuit guardians all play a really important role, but, yes, we do need these other layers of domain awareness as well.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
That's an excellent recommendation, by the way.
Ms. O'Connell, you have three minutes.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all to the witnesses for being here today.
With this short amount of time, I will put the question out to both witnesses who can answer today.
In terms of training and equipment, I think we've heard loud and clear some of the requests there. What about exercises that are held and the role that Canada can play, whether it be with the rangers or other local organizations that might have a role to play in this with our allies and some of the exercise opportunities? It's not just your initial training but that ongoing learning to make sure that everyone is prepared as the nature of the exercise changes and evolves. Could both of you comment on exercises?
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Public Policy and Governance, Brian Mulroney Institute of Government, St. Francis Xavier University, As an Individual
I can jump in quickly just to say that there is a pretty sophisticated exercising program going on right now, which is spearheaded by the Coast Guard in its training and exercise programming, working with cruise industries in particular to make sure that they are ready for what a mass rescue operation might entail in the north.
There are also operations through Operation Nanook-Tatigiit, which focuses on search and rescue and emergency management concerns in the north. We have these various pockets of exercising.
I would love to see these sustained, and, as you're saying, enlarged to include even more partners. I think that those are making a big difference in getting the north ready for some of the safety and security issues that are going to arise in the near future.
12:50 p.m.
Researcher, Centre de recherche du Centre hospitalier de l’Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I can talk about the French armed forces, with whom I have spoken and worked. In bilateral and multilateral exercises, French soldiers from the Groupe militaire de haute montagne have worked with Canadian Rangers and have benefited from their advice. This is a very practical example.
With respect to training, Lieutenant Colonel Mainville, who was the commander of the 2nd Canadian Ranger Patrol Group until this year, told me that climate change is already having an impact on the periods during which the rangers can train. These periods are being shortened. Increasingly unpredictable weather conditions are disrupting these exercises. That factor must also be considered during annual ranger patrol exercises.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Kikkert, I would like to take you back to a statement you made in our earlier study on the use of the military in situations like those caused by climate change. You mentioned that, the more the military is used for domestic exercises, the less combat-trained they are, which can be problematic.
Does your comment also apply to operations in the north, where the environment is much more hostile?
This could also be part of the training of our military: we could send them to carry out exercises along the lines of Operation Lentus, but in the north.
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Public Policy and Governance, Brian Mulroney Institute of Government, St. Francis Xavier University, As an Individual
That's a great point. I think that the increasing role of the Canadian Armed Forces in domestic response operations in the south is a clear challenge for the north, which has fewer resources across the board for emergency response and emergency management. Therefore, the Canadian Armed Forces should be able to operate in this space, but I think there are deep concerns from the northern residents that the more the CAF responds to situations in Nova Scotia or British Columbia, the north might get forgotten.
That's an important thing to consider, that other jurisdictions should be developing their own capabilities so that the CAF can be used in a space like the north where their unique and self-sustaining capabilities are absolutely required for all types of emergency response scenarios in the north. That's why—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you. I'm sorry, again. All I do is say “sorry”.
Ms. Mathyssen, you have one minute.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
It's ironic, considering that we can't hear from the witness on the ground, but in terms of being on the ground, there was a comment about the loss of land and traditional knowledge. How are we ensuring that rangers and indigenous people within those decision-making bodies are actually leading that and are being called upon in roles of leadership to ensure that we hear their voices first and foremost?
12:50 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Public Policy and Governance, Brian Mulroney Institute of Government, St. Francis Xavier University, As an Individual
Right now, actually, ranger leadership is going on in Yellowknife for the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group. Ranger leaders from across the north were able to come together and talk to 1 CRPG about what they want to see happening in the near future. I think that's a great built-in part of the organization that allows rangers to speak their minds.
In terms of passing along traditional knowledge and ensuring that this becomes a really important part of the solutions to all the challenges, I think Calvin Pedersen might say this: When he was in high school, there were lots of opportunities in the classroom to learn these skills and to pass along traditional knowledge, but those all disappeared. Yes, the junior Canadian rangers program, the JCR, is fantastic, but they're not [Technical difficulty—Editor] as many kids in the communities as is required.
Get back into the schools with traditional knowledge and skills. That's a great way to go forward.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We'll have to leave it there.
There seemed to be a kind of interruption in Mr. Kikkert's feed. Hopefully, that didn't create any difficulties.
We're down to three minutes. I have Mr. Kelly for the next three minutes. Is that true?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
What's your opinion on the solutions to the shortage on upgrading the critical NORAD infrastructure's lack of human capital available up there to do that work?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
12:55 p.m.
Researcher, Centre de recherche du Centre hospitalier de l’Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
What, in your opinion, are the solutions to the shortage of human capital available to do the upgrading on the critical NORAD infrastructure?
12:55 p.m.
Researcher, Centre de recherche du Centre hospitalier de l’Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Do you mean using rangers to help keep an eye on the infrastructure?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
No. Okay. There's a shortage of personnel up there. I'll go to my next question.
Aside from the United States, Russia, New Zealand and China, what other countries have the rangers observed passing through in Arctic waters above Canada?
That's for either witness.