National Defence Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

You could have used your time to ask that question—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I'll just again thank our witnesses for appearing today. It will help inform our study on Arctic security. Thank you very much.

We're going to suspend while we swap out witnesses.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I call this meeting back to order.

Welcome, everyone. We're going to continue our study on Arctic surveillance and security.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion we passed on November 15, 2022, we have with us officials from the Office of the Auditor General to talk about “Report 6: Arctic Waters Surveillance”.

Joining us now is the Auditor General herself, Karen Hogan. With her, we have Chantal Thibaudeau, director, and Nicholas Swales, principal. I want to thank all of you for being here.

Ms. Hogan, you have five minutes for your opening comments.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this opportunity to discuss our report on the surveillance of Canada's Arctic waters, which was tabled in the House of Commons on November 15.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Joining me today are Nicholas Swales, the principal who was responsible for the audit, and Chantal Thibaudeau, the director who led the audit team.

In recent decades, Canada's Arctic waters have become more accessible as summer sea ice has declined and navigation technologies have improved. This has generated interest and competition in the region, significantly increasing ship traffic and affecting local communities. Growing maritime traffic increases the risk of unauthorized access, illegal activities, and safety and pollution incidents.

For this audit, we wanted to know whether key federal organizations built the maritime domain awareness needed to respond to safety and security risks and incidents associated with increasing vessel traffic in Arctic waters.

No federal organization is solely responsible for this surveillance of Canada's Arctic waters. In our audit, we included the five organizations that are mainly responsible: Transport Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, the Canadian Coast Guard, National Defence and Environment and Climate Change Canada.

We found that over the past decade these organizations have repeatedly identified gaps in the surveillance of Arctic waters, but they have not taken action to address them. These gaps include limited capabilities to build a complete picture of ship traffic in the Arctic and the inability to track and identify vessels that don't use digital tracking systems, either because they don't have to or because they are not complying with requirements.

Collaboration is important to mitigate gaps in maritime domain awareness. Coastal communities contribute information through direct observation. Federal initiatives such as the marine security operation centres in Halifax also play a key role. However, we found that weaknesses in the mechanisms that support information sharing, decision-making and accountability affected the centres' efficiency.

Arctic waters surveillance relies on several types of equipment, such as satellites, aircraft and ships. We found that much of this equipment is old and its renewal has been delayed to the point that some equipment will likely need to be retired before it can be replaced. This is the situation for the Canadian Coast Guard's icebreakers and Transport Canada's single patrol airplane: They are near the end of their service lives and likely to be retired before new equipment can be delivered. Satellites are also nearing the end of their service lives and currently do not meet surveillance needs. Replacements in all cases are many years away.

We also found that the infrastructure projects aimed at supporting the surveillance aircraft and offshore patrol ships were delayed. For example, the Nanisivik Naval Facility, intended to support government vessels in Arctic waters, is behind schedule and has been reduced in scope to the point that it will operate only about four weeks per year. As a result, Royal Canadian Navy ships may not be resupplied where and when needed.

Our 2021 audit of the national shipbuilding strategy raised concerning delays in the delivery of the combat and non-combat ships that Canada needs to meet its domestic and international obligations. That audit also noted that further delays could result in several vessels being retired before new vessels are operational.

In this audit, we found that those delays persist. Effective surveillance in the Arctic relies on marine vessels, aircraft and satellites, all of which are aging. The government urgently needs to address these long-standing issues and put equipment renewal on a sustainable path to protect Canada's interests in the Arctic.

This concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much for those comments.

We're going to go to our first round.

Mr. Pat Kelly, you have six minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I spent much of my first Parliament on public accounts, and these reports are so incredibly important to Canadians. They're often very frustrating to read because they often reveal problems that have been identified long ago, often spanning multiple governments, that just don't get addressed.

The imminent failure or coming to the end, the obsolescence.... Much of our infrastructure to maintain domain awareness in the Arctic is coming to an end, and the replacements are not going to be there on time.

Can you talk about the satellite program? The nine-year gap is just stunning. Can you comment on that and on the government's response to date?

[Karen Hogan]

I am going to have to turn to Nicholas for some of the additional details.

When we looked at the satellites in this audit, it was around whether or not the government had the capabilities to gather the maritime domain awareness. What we found was that the satellites were not meeting the current needs. If a priority request came up, another request was bumped down on the list. We did highlight the aging and, as you mentioned, the length of time to replace these.

What we're looking for is for the government to have a bit of a contingency plan. What will happen should these satellites reach the end of their useful lives? Right now, the government either buys information commercially or turns to its allies. We encourage it to have a bit of a contingency plan in addition to doing that.

If you want more details, maybe Mr. Swales could provide that.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Actually, I would like...because that's an important point. It's not merely that the satellites are going to reach the end of their expected life in 2026 and not be replaced until 2035. They're already not fulfilling the need in the Arctic.

Could you elaborate on that?

[Nicholas Swales, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

That's certainly the situation. There are multiple departments seeking information from the satellites and not all of their needs are currently being met.

What's troubling is that the lifespan of satellites—at least the expected time for which they will work—as you can see from the information we provide, is relatively short, yet at the moment, it is taking a long time for the government to develop new satellites. Decision-making is certainly a problem here.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

If a vessel in Canadian Arctic waters turned off its transponder, how would Canada be able to track that vessel?

[Karen Hogan]

Tracking vessels is done not just by satellite, so it would be with aircraft, with visual confirmation. That's why collaboration and coordination with the coastal Inuit communities is essential. We highlighted a couple of programs there. While there is an effort to work with those communities, they're very slow to develop those programs.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Does Canada possess the capability to track a vessel that is without a transponder throughout the entire Arctic? Do we have the aircraft and shore-based capabilities to maintain domain awareness if the vessel is uncooperative?

[Karen Hogan]

What we found was that several years ago the government identified that gap. In repeated assessments of gaps, they have identified it, but no action or solution has been taken to resolve that gap.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That's what is so frustrating to, I think, all Canadians, and it spans governments. This is not a partisan shot, but that's a real problem in Canada. A problem is repeatedly identified and action isn't taken.

What confidence can Canadians have that this time it is somehow going to be different?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm often asked that question. I'll be really honest. I can't tell you with any degree of confidence that departments will take action. They've agreed to our recommendations. I think it's about finding different solutions. A lot of analysis has happened. Now it's time to actually develop some concrete plans to address the analysis. Instead of refining the analysis, let's take some action to address it.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Indeed. Since 2016 this government has delayed implementing these solutions. It has had seven years now. What are the most urgent—let's go beyond the satellite piece. I know you've identified recommendations, but what are the absolute priorities to maintain domain awareness in the Arctic?

[Karen Hogan]

I think it would cover all elements. There's more than one factor to maintaining domain awareness. You need to have good collaboration with all stakeholders in the Arctic and good collaboration among the federal entities in the Arctic. We have identified that there are still some weaknesses in terms of information sharing to make it more effective and timely, but then there's also the equipment that you need. It's really up to the government to prioritize what will come first. You need ships, aircraft, facilities, individuals and satellites.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Are any of these items on track to either maintain or, in some cases, create the necessary domain awareness to maintain Arctic security?

[Karen Hogan]

I would refer you to an exhibit we included in our audit report, which actually maps out the current expected useful life and/or extensions, and then when the government currently believes replacement equipment will be available. You'll see that in some of those—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Actually, if I may, I'm sorry—

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, of course.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

—but I have it right here, on page 17. There are some ships that maybe, way down the line, are expected to arrive just in time to replace existing ones, yet that assumes there will be no further delays and that every single ship—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You're out of time, and unfortunately I'm going to have to be very.... We have such a short period of time with the Auditor General.

We will move to Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Auditor General and your team, for being here and for providing very important oversight to the government. I certainly personally appreciate the work you folks do.

You talked about the five relevant federal organizations: Transport, Fisheries, the Coast Guard, National Defence and Environment and Climate Change. Did all of the relevant federal agencies co-operate with and provide information to your office in a timely manner, in your opinion?

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely. If we have any concerns with co-operation or disagreements with any of the entities in our audits, we are always transparent and include that information in our audit report. We received great co-operation from all the organizations involved.