National Defence Committee on Feb. 9th, 2022

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Yes, I will be sharing my time with Mr. Doherty.

General Eyre, welcome. Greetings from Medicine Hat. I know you've spent some time here.

I have two questions for you, sir.

I recently received an email from a retired member of the armed forces that noted he and 300 other crew members were deployed and they didn't receive their at-risk pay when they were deployed because the paperwork wasn't done on time. After returning, they were told their back pay was tied up with other pay adjustments, and it would be between three and 10 years before it was resolved.

This individual has left already. Many will be leaving and, no doubt, they'll be leaving in part because of these issues.

Who's going to check that everyone gets paid the right amount in this debacle? All I'm asking of you, sir, is if you will commit to resolving the at-risk pay and back pay issues within the next six months.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I get irked when I hear stories like that, so I have to get the details and look into it more. From the sounds of it, it's something that needs to get sorted out.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, sir. If you get a hold of my office, we'd be happy to give you the details of this gentleman and the ship that it relates to.

Secondly, General, our committee is undertaking a study on threats and force readiness, as you are aware. There are serious concerns, given the increased global tensions. There's a shift in warfare to cyber. There's a lack of personnel, as has been mentioned already today by the minister. There are training and equipment issues. Canada is not really a trusted ally any longer, which is concerning some of our allies. We can't deal with the coming challenges.

Can you outline your mid- to long-term concerns about the future of the forces? What is your plan to address them?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I understand that we don't have a heck of a lot of time here. I will try to make this concise.

I'm very concerned about what the future security environment entails because Canada is no longer as safe as it once was or once thought itself to be. I believe the Canadian Armed Forces is going to be increasingly called upon to address security threats around the world and to protect Canada and Canadians here at home.

What is the plan to do that? Over the course of the pandemic, we have shrunk. Our readiness has been reduced. Last summer I issued a Canadian Armed Forces reconstitution plan. That plan focuses on rebuilding our strength, but not in the same way. It is to be focused, to be oriented to those threats that we're going to face in the future.

Of three priorities, number one is people. Right at the top of that list is changing those harmful exclusionary aspects of our culture, addressing some of the real challenges in our society right now—the cost of housing and the cost of living, which are one of the major dissatisfiers that I see as I travel around the country—and rebuilding our strength and getting our numbers back up there.

The second priority is operations, being ready to respond to the plethora of hot spots we see around the world, the constant demand for Canadian Armed Forces intervention.

Finally third is modernization. We cannot take our eyes off the future. We can't mortgage the future to pay for the present. We must continue to get those projects that are in our defence policy and continue to focus on continental defence and what we need to do, looking at our force structure and perhaps changing some of the structure that's been in place in place for 70 years, since the industrial age, and getting it better ready for the information age.

What this means, though, is that we have to put the concepts in place, as well. You talked about cyber. That's one of the new domains I'm quite worried about. Space is the other. We have to better integrate those domains—land, air, sea, cyber, space, information—to really have a pan-domain approach, an integrated approach as we approach the challenges of the future, because our adversaries are doing just that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Doherty has about a minute and a half.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Great.

Ms. Bruce, do you think Canada approving Huawei for 5G presents significant national security concerns for our country?

[Shelly Bruce, Chief, Communications Security Establishment]

As you know, the CSE has a very significant mandate when it comes to cybersecurity. We are very interested in telecommunications security and have been working with the other partners in the government on the proposals that will inform a decision for the government.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Should Canada ban Huawei in you view, yes or no?

[Shelly Bruce]

The government's decision will be forthcoming.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

General Eyre, it's the same question. Should Canada ban Huawei in your view, yes or no?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

That's a government decision, and I'll leave it at that.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

General, you touched on it. The morale is at an all-time low by all accounts. It is a big job to recruit and retain. The minister mentioned a couple of times in her opening remarks about the right people and the right equipment.

Is that to say we haven't had the right people, or is that a different focus?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Over the course of our history, morale has gone up and down. It's not a constant. We're facing a particularly challenging time right now, as are all Canadians. We're not immune to the challenges out there in society.

It's important to realize that our troops, our people, continue to do excellent things here at home and around the world. They are proud to serve. They serve selflessly. They leave their families behind. As we speak, we have people in harm's way in different places around the world. As we go out and talk to them doing their jobs, they are very proud of what they're doing.

Could we use more equipment? Could we use more people? Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you. I'm sorry, General Eyre. Mr. Doherty's time has expired.

With that, we go on to Mr. Zuberi for six minutes please.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, General Eyre and deputy minister, for being here, and to all the witnesses.

I'd like to preface my remarks by sharing that I did serve in uniform in our armed forces as a reservist many years ago, for about five years. I appreciate your being here today.

I want to ask a question that is somewhat personal, something that I've seen in the past when I was in uniform. It relates to sensitivity training. It relates to diversity inclusion. It relates to what I've seen in the past, not personally witnessed but in general terms.

We know that sexual misconduct, harassment and discrimination has been a large conversation as it relates to the armed forces. The minister recently said that things can change, must change and will change. I'd like to put forth to both of you, in terms of the department and CAF, what are the forces doing to uphold this?

General Eyre, would you like to comment, please?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I could discuss a large list of initiatives and different activities that we're undertaking. There is no one single silver bullet for culture change. It's a number of initiatives top down and also bottom up.

I will say, at its root, we need to address the exclusionary aspects of our culture. Traditionally we come from a homogenous group. We've been recruited from homogenous group, but the face of Canada is changing, and our armed forces, if we are to be successful in the future, has to be able to attract and retain talent from whatever segment of Canadian society it may come.

If operational effectiveness is predicated on cohesion, cohesion is predicated on teamwork. The way we build our teams has to change. We have to have a much more inclusive approach to leadership. What I mean by that is that we just can't have a cookie-cutter approach to building teams. Leaders at every level have to understand the unique backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses and developmental needs of each one of their individuals so they can weave them together to form that team. Every member of that team has to believe that they are in an organization where they belong so that they feel psychologically safe to contribute, to share their ideas and to point something out if it doesn't look right.

We've started to operationalize this. Last fall we issued an inclusivity directive, how inclusivity is going to be operationalized and assessed down the chain. We're changing our leadership training at all levels to have more focus on the human domain, emotional intelligence, power dynamics and inclusion.

We're about to publish a revised military ethos called “Trusted to Serve”. Previously we focused on competence, which is still very important, but even more so is character. Character has to lead; competence can follow. One of the new military values we're bringing in is inclusion because it is so important for our operational effectiveness going into the future, not to mention that it's the right thing to do.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Certainly, and thank you for that.

I'd like to open it up to Deputy Minister Matthews, if he'd like to comment further.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you. I have maybe three quick points.

One, the Department of National Defence is made up of both armed forces members and civilians often working shoulder to shoulder, so capturing both sides of the culture is important.

I have two examples to add to what the chief of defence staff said. We do have an anti-racism secretariat that's been stood up. It's now under the culture change group, and that's an important piece.

Just another example of inclusivity is that upwards of 70,000 of our defence team members have now taken the indigenous culture course as one more step in broadening awareness around the importance of inclusivity as we build the forces going forward.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Just to follow up, we heard at a very high level how that is happening, and that's great. I loved hearing about the character aspect and loved hearing about the emotional intelligence aspect.

How are you implementing that in the day-to-day reality of soldiers serving in uniform? In particular, I'm thinking about back in the day when I was in uniform. Once a year I used to get something called sharp training, and it would be a refresher each and every year. I'm just curious about that and where it's at today.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I think that once-a-year training was one of the reasons we did not make the progress we should have. It's kind of like going to the gym once a year and saying that you're fit. It doesn't work. The approach we need to take is that it has to be continuous. It has to be in all of our leadership training. It has to be in our self-directed professional development, and we have to talk about it. Only through that continuous improvement are we going to be able to make that change.

That's why I'm so excited to see the advances we're making in our professional military education and our professional development. We're not going to be able to do this overnight, but this is the intent. This is what we've started, and we're going to keep our focus on making this baked into our daily life.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi. You and I are shattered that once a year in the gym isn't going to cut it.

Madame Normandin, you have six minutes, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks again to all the witnesses for making themselves available. We really appreciate it.

Witnesses have stated that the recruitment problem can be explained by a number of factors, including misconduct, obviously, and COVID‑19. I would also mention that veterans are telling us that the transition from military to civilian life poses a number of difficulties that may make the forces less attractive.

According to what we have been told, when members of the military leave military life behind, their medical file is closed and they must transition to a civilian doctor, which is extremely difficult. I'm wondering, therefore, whether a study could be conducted on the possibility of members being treated a bit longer by a military doctor after they leave the military. I would also like to know what work is being undertaken with Veterans Affairs Canada to smooth the transition.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Thank you for the question.

It is a concern that we have as well. It was one of the driving reasons why, several years ago, we established the Canadian Armed Forces transition group to assist our members as they transitioned back to civilian life so they could reintegrate into Canadian society. Part of that transition process involves working closely with Veterans Affairs Canada to ensure that relevant medical information is transferred. We have made some tremendous progress with this over the course of the last number of years. In fact, I was just talking to the deputy minister of Veterans Affairs two weeks ago about this.

With regard to the proposal to use Canadian Armed Forces health services personnel to continue to treat veterans, I would love to do that but the challenge is capacity. Right now the limiting factor we have in so many of our activities is just the sheer lack of medical resources. Right now it's a question of resources and also a question of coverage. The Canada Health Act is quite clear that the regular force members will receive medical coverage from within the Canadian Forces health services. We don't have a policy to cover for that either.

I'll ask the deputy minister if he has more on this.

[Bill Matthews]

I would like to add a brief comment. Since my return to the department, I have observed an improvement in the ties between the two departments. It's important to work with the Department of Veterans Affairs to improve this transition.

It is an area in which I have noticed an improvement in my three-year hiatus, and I'm delighted to see that. That is not to say there's not more to do, but there is noticeable improvement.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Before I ask my next question, I would like to make a comment.

We have been hearing that medical officers who have treated members of the military know their history well. We know that it is quite difficult to find a new doctor in the civilian system owing to a lack of resources there as well. However, civilian doctors are professionals. They do not just take over a military file and rely on its contents. They redo the examinations, which is extremely long.

I would like more information on the drone project planned for either Bagotville or Gagetown. We have been hearing about these two options, so I would like an update on the project.