National Defence Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

First of all, no decision has been made yet.

Second of all, it's important to keep in mind that we have to take steps to carefully examine all the options, not just the option you're talking about. We will make sure the Canadian Armed Forces has the equipment it needs when it's needed to do the tough jobs we ask of CAF members. That is why we will examine that option.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

One of the things Bombardier has criticized is the fact that the department moved up the dates it had originally set, preventing the company from providing an effective product. Will the department commit to sticking to its original schedule, according to which, the project would not get under way until 2027‑28 at the earliest?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We have to keep in mind that, through ongoing engagement with the industry and our allies, we have determined that the P‑8 Poseidon is the only reconnaissance aircraft currently available that meets the requirements of the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Does the deputy minister have anything to add?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, Ms. Normandin, you are way beyond your time. Maybe you can work that in during the second hour.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

In this committee, we just started a study on the health services provided to our armed forces and then on transition services.

In 2017, the government signed a $1 billion deal with Calian to outsource the provision of health care workers in the armed forces. At that time, Calian's CEO said that it was too early for Calian to be hiring anymore staff.

We've repeatedly heard in this committee about the need for medical professionals and doctors to be provided and available to CAF members. In fact, General Eyre was at this committee talking exactly about that need to provide health care professionals.

With regard to this huge contract that Calian is making quite a lot of profit from—taking profit away from the provision of health care professionals—wouldn't it be more beneficial to hire more medical professionals directly, bringing them back in-house to service our CAF?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'm going to ask the deputy minister whether he can take this question. Thank you.

[Bill Matthews, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Certainly, Mr. Chair.

There are two points here. It's a blended approach. Yes, there's a contract with Calian, and yes, there are contracted resources for health care services available on bases. They can serve two purposes: One is a stopgap, where there is a shortage amongst employees; and two is a longer-term delivery model where there are no employees available in the foreseeable future.

That's not to say that there are no employees giving health care services on bases. Across the country, it's a mixed model. Where there are delays in staffing or we cannot find the appropriate qualified employees to deliver the services, Calian provides a useful backup.

As you know, military members do not use the provincial health care system unless there are special circumstances.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Part of the budget this year, as well as the PSCC's recent negotiations, was a promise to cut that outsourcing by 15%. Would this be one of those deals that you would look at?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, when we're looking at health care services, the first thing is that we need the services available. Where the staff can be found—and there's an ongoing challenge in health care services—our priority is to staff those positions. Where there are delays in staffing, absolutely, we have to rely on other means to provide the services.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Gallant, you have five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

It's great to hear that our Arctic patrol ships that we ordered when we were government are so well appreciated.

Minister, you said that the updated SSE is reacting to threats we face today.

This committee learned about threats to our Arctic, in particular below the water surface. Can you tell us where in the estimates this is reflected, for example, even for the beginning of research into a submarine that can be used by the Canadian Forces that will stay under the water longer than our diesel engines?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this question.

First of all, we have our Victoria-class modernization project for four submarines contemplated in these main estimates. We're asking for $3.3 million to enhance capabilities, conditions and operation of subs through the mid-2030s.

In addition, our Royal Canadian Navy is examining conventional options that would be available for a potential submarine replacement class. That's going to include gathering information and conducting an analysis of submarines that would meet the requirements, some of which the honourable member outlined.

Our defence policy update is currently under way; public consultations are ongoing. We look forward to releasing the defence policy update in the near future.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Given the degree to which we had to rely on the United States during the challenges with balloon overflights earlier this year, has Canada had any concrete progress in increasing its surveillance capabilities?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Actually, I disagree with the premise of the question that we had to rely on the United States. In fact, it was the binational command through NORAD that detected and shot down the suspected balloon over Yukon in February.

In other words, it was Canada and the United States acting jointly with NORAD. It was NORAD doing what NORAD does best, which is controlling our skies.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How close are we to getting the sensors, so that we, ourselves, can detect when we have intrusions into our air space?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We're continuing to work on our aerospace surveillance by maintaining the North Warning System with a contract with Nasittuq Corporation for about $600 million, as well as through NORAD modernization by establishing over-the-horizon radar from a polar and an Arctic perspective.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Minister, when will that be up and running? How long do we have to wait?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

On our website, we have outlined 19 projects that will be undertaken as part of the $38 billion that we are contemplating for NORAD modernization.

This is a process. Establishing air surveillance systems is going to take time. While we're establishing the new northern approaches surveillance system, we're also maintaining our North Warning System to ensure the safety and security of our skies through NORAD.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Will budget 2023 provide our troops with the needed materials to properly defend democracy here and abroad?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As a general matter, our defence spending is on an upward trajectory through various continued additions to our spending through budget 2022, through our defence policy in 2017 and through our NORAD modernization, which was announced in June 2022.

There are a number of envelopes on the table that have allocated money for increased defence spending. We have the sixth largest defence budget in NATO and our defence spending is on an upward trajectory.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Let's talk about NATO.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Yes, we have more work to do, but we are doing it.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

With respect to reporting on the defence spending for NATO, Canada includes spending made directly to veterans, peacekeeping, humanitarian operations, the Coast Guard and transfer payments to security agencies—both international and domestic. Those are new additions to make it look like we're investing more in the military than we are.

Given that we learned that the Prime Minister has no intention of even attempting to aspire to the 2%, what's going to happen when the 2% goal becomes the floor and it's no longer just an aspirational goal? What happens when it becomes the floor at which we're supposed to be spending on defence from the beginning?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I think it's important to remember that we can't simply place large sums of money in front of the Department of National Defence without a plan for the spending of that money. The work we're doing with the defence policy update is just that: It's to establish a plan to ensure that we are allocating funding to the needs we have from a defence perspective. That's what we did in 2017 as well. It's to make sure we are putting funding where the threat needs exist.

I want to stress to you all that at Defence, we are looking at allocated funding and also at why it was allocated. As the previous question suggested, we need to get out the door the money that has already been allocated to us, either in SSE or in NORAD modernization.

That's the work we have to do...as well as in the defence policy update.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave the answer there.

We'll go to Ms. O'Connell for five minutes.