National Defence Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

In terms of the estimates, yes.

[Bill Matthews]

No. Mr. Chair, the main estimates, generally speaking, year over year, as you've seen...a 2% increase.... We've talked about some of the challenges in terms of getting dollars out the door and moving projects along with our partners in industry at the pace we would like. However, do I have concern with the main estimates right now? The increase is understandable. I'm sure you will hear from us later on this year on supplementary estimates, but there's nothing to flag for the committee.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Specifically, I'm looking at some of the challenges in Canada as result of the transfer for Operation Unifier training with the Ukraine and the United States and Poland. How is that training progressing? How is that proceeding?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, just for clarification.... Are you asking how our training of Ukrainian armed forces is proceeding?

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Yes, and is it being put to use by the Ukrainian armed forces?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

The training we provide to the Ukrainian armed forces is highly valued. I believe I spoke to this committee after my trip to Ukraine two months ago. The commander of our joint operations command came back from meeting counterparts in Ukraine a week and a half ago, and we had the same message: the training we are delivering is of incredible benefit.

In the U.K., as we train Ukrainian recruits, a five-week program of instruction continues to go very well. We're going to carry on with that for the rest of the year. As we speak, we have 400, soon to be 800, Ukrainian recruits under instruction. Our training of engineers in Poland, likewise, goes extremely well. We've trained hundreds of Ukrainian sappers to deal with issues like mine clearance, obstacle removal and the like. We have recently started the training of Ukrainian medical personnel in battlefield medicine—tactical combat casualty care—which is proving to be extremely successful, and the personnel have asked us to do more.

We were looking at opportunities to expand leadership training in Ukraine. One of the competitive advantages the armed forces of Ukraine have is the quality of their leaders, both at the NCO and officer levels. They've really embraced what we call “mission command”, so that empowerment. War is not kind on junior leaders, and junior leaders suffer a disproportionate number of casualties, so helping the Ukrainian armed forces reconstitute that leadership cadre is an important allied effort, as well.

The training we've done on the tanks that we've donated has been greatly appreciated, and I'll share what I shared before. These have been some of the most valuable experiences our own soldiers have had in their own lives when training Ukrainians. Just two weeks ago, I was in Germany, and met with some of our members who are providing the organizational support for the sustainment and the training, and they, likewise, told me this is the most meaningful thing they've done in their lives.

This continues to be a very valued endeavour, and useful for the future of the rules-based international order.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Returning to the estimates and the planned increases, I was concerned about the cyber capability, the increased supports you've been putting forward with respect to that, particularly your ability to defend that critical infrastructure from cyber-attacks. Is it helping?

I'm trying to understand if what we've done to provide estimates and to provide the support is giving you what you need.

[Bill Matthews]

I think there are two things. We should turn to our colleagues from CSE, as they are the true experts here; but, yes, defence has a cyber capability, and protecting our assets and communications in an increasingly complex world is part of the core job. There's lots of research going on in this area, as well.

Perhaps Caroline would wish to add something from a CSE perspective.

[Caroline Xavier, Chief, Communications Security Establishment]

I'm happy to say that the main estimates did provide an injection of funds, in particular with regard to Operation Unifier. That's in addition to the budget funding that was provided to us in 2022, to proceed with foreign cyber operations, and support what we need to do. We do have quite a bit as a result of the law that was modified in 2019, which provided us with...foreign cyber operations to undertake both defensive as well as active cyber operations.

One of the things we do with Ukraine, in particular, is to provide a lot of cyber-advice. We learned a lot from the war in Ukraine in recognizing the threat to critical infrastructure. We had already stated this as part of our “National Cyber Threat Assessment” which was done last fall.

In addition to what we're witnessing in the war in Ukraine, we have also been actively warning industry in critical infrastructure sectors to be aware of the fact they could be possible targets of cyber-attacks.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave the answer there. I'm sorry about that.

Madame Normandin, you have two and a half minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Matthews, in relation to the replacement of the post living differential with the housing differential, General Eyre said earlier that the negotiations with Treasury Board were difficult. Can you confirm that, at the end of the day, the total budget for the new benefit being provided to members of the military—albeit in a different way—is less than the previous budget?

We've also heard that members of the military are complaining that the 10% salary increase over four years, which is retroactive to 2021, is not enough. Does the Treasury Board realize how important it is for the armed forces to be competitive with private sector employers, given the labour shortage?

[Bill Matthews]

When we decide to update a policy, we have discussions with the central agencies, of course, but we also provide data, which is even more important. We did a lot of economic modelling to account for each option, and we worked with our counterparts at the Treasury Board Secretariat to identify the best model to implement.

As for the salary increase, I can't comment on where my counterparts at the Treasury Board Secretariat stand on the matter.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

In that case, I'm going to put the question to all the witnesses. Does a 10% salary increase over four years make the Canadian Armed Forces a competitive employer as compared with the private sector, in the context of a labour shortage?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, I wish I could give every member of the armed forces more than a 10% salary increase, but that's not the current policy.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'd like to get one, too.

Next is Ms. Mathyssen for two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I talked before about the fact that, as part of the budget and then the promises to PSAC strikers to come to a tentative deal, the government promised to cut outsourcing by 15%. Obviously, this is a huge issue to the union in terms of seeing a lot of their work being contracted out. Of course, this is a big deal to the government as we see a lot of big contracts, big numbers, going out to private corporations.

Can you confirm that going forward, as part of this review and this new deal, that will also put limitations on the salary wage envelope and those spending caps that limit the size of DND, which ultimately forces those in command to do a lot of that outsourcing? That ultimately costs a lot more money in the long run.

[Bill Matthews]

There are a couple of things here.

Number one, the deal is pretty fresh, Mr. Chair, so we will certainly engage with the centre in terms of expectations on honouring the commitments that were made as part of that deal.

Contracting out, outsourcing, is always a hot topic when we meet with our union leadership. I would suggest that, on the defence side, our public service numbers are growing, and we make use of contracting dollars as well. I would not see this as a case of the department having outsourced public sector employees' jobs, because we have been in growth mode. When you cannot find employees in a timely manner to fill gaps, there's a question of how you do that. I think contracting is always a viable temporary fix.

With regard to the last part of the question on the salary wage envelope, one can move money between salary and wages and other envelopes for consulting dollars. People don't necessarily understand how that is done, but I would tell you it is not a limiting factor. What is a limiting factor, in many cases when I speak to base commanders, is the availability of employees to do the work. That tends to be why they drift that way. It should not be a limiting factor in terms of those decisions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Next is Mr. Bezan for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, I want to run through this pretty quickly. On the Australian fighter jets, how many of the old F-18s that we bought have been put into operation? Have they been completely modernized?

[Bill Matthews]

I think I'll pass that one to Mr. Crosby.

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, there are currently 12 jets in service. The 13th one, and the last that we'll be modifying, will be delivered this summer.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

There's a total of 18 we bought plus seven for parts. Are we cannibalizing those seven other jets to get these ones flying or are we also pulling parts off those old seven F-18s to go on our fleet?

[Troy Crosby]

Mr. Chair, the remaining aircraft will either be turned into parts that we can employ or in some cases, we may look at turning them into training aids.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thanks.

Out of Montreal, we have an ammunition plant owned by General Dynamics OTS. Can you confirm that the American government military contacted Canada to start building the 155 millimetre rounds for the M777 howitzers?

[Bill Matthews]

We're in contact with our allies and industry on ammunition, because the 155 millimetre is a hot commodity these days. With our allies we are working together to try to figure out the best way to maximize industry capability there.