Evidence of meeting #67 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jocelyne Therrien  External Monitor, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I call this meeting order. I see a quorum and we're running late.

Colleagues, the Canadian Forces just lost a number of members. We're not quite sure exactly. I just wonder if we could stand for a moment and remember what they do for us and the risks that they take. Then we'll resume our meeting.

[A moment of silence observed]

Thank you.

We have with us this afternoon the external monitor. We have a number of time challenges. The first-time challenge I need guidance on is whether we run until 5:30 or past 5:30.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

We run until 5:30.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, then 5:30 it is.

Second, it's been suggested to me by Ms. Normandin that she would like to hear from Madame Therrien for 10 minutes as opposed to five minutes. If I do that, then we'll have to necessarily cut back on members' time.

Is five minutes good?

4:10 p.m.

Jocelyne Therrien External Monitor, As an Individual

Five minutes is good.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Consider that request withdrawn.

With that, we'll ask you to start your five-minute opening statement. If we run for an hour, that will take us to 5:15. We just agreed to do an in camera meeting for 15 minutes. I think we're going to have to cut this back to five o'clock, because we do have a half-hour of business. It's the last time we're going to meet, and we do have a lot of work. We'll run this meeting until five o'clock.

I appreciate your patience, Madame Therrien. We look forward to your opening statement for five minutes.

4:10 p.m.

Jocelyne Therrien External Monitor, As an Individual

Thank you, Chair and members, for the invitation to appear before this committee.

Last October I was appointed as external monitor, pursuant to recommendation 48 of the report from the Independent External Comprehensive Review, which was completed, as you know, by former Justice Arbour, and it was made public last year. My mandate is to provide advice and to report on the implementation by DND and the CAF of accepted recommendations from Justice Arbour’s report as well as recommendations from other external reports.

In accordance with the recommendation, I am to provide the minister with a biannual status report. My first report was issued a few weeks ago and it contains my observations from November to the end of April 2023, addressing the progress on about half of Justice Arbour’s recommendations. I will admit that the time frame for a first public report made for an intensive learning curve. That said, I made myself very present in the lives of many people at the DND/CAF, and they were generous with their time.

I've met with many senior leaders in the organization. To them I posed the question, “What have you been doing to address the spirit and intent of the recommendations for which you are responsible, and how is any of it different this time?”

I believe that the revelations regarding senior leaders in 2021 represented a galvanizing moment. I'm seeing a strong will to make things better in the DND/CAF. The organization is fully aware that it needs to maintain a work environment that will attract and retain the best candidates if the CAF is to remain a viable, professional body.

As noted in my first report, I have seen definite progress in addressing a number of the recommendations. Notwithstanding these achievements and the existing actions, the DND/CAF needs to be more strategic in its approach. At this point in time, National Defence is responding to hundreds of recommendations related to culture from several external sources. The recommendations cover a broad set of systems and practices belonging to different organizations within the DND/CAF. Some are complementary and some are not.

I explained in that same report that there is no overarching framework that would allow DND and the CAF to improve the prioritization and horizontal coordination of their efforts. There was some work done to rank the individual recommendations, but it was done without a general focus of effort. This is an essential element, not only to ensure that individual recommendations are implemented, but also to ensure that they produce, as a whole, the positive culture change that is sought.

I believe that the many recommendations this government has accepted need to be rationalized, according to established principles, criteria and themes, so that those recommendations most likely to have the biggest impact on culture change remain the primary focus. I have recently learned that this is happening.

Members of the DND and CAF have consulted broadly, both internally and externally, on the subject of sexual misconduct. They also have readily available information from many stakeholders. Never have they been so informed as to what they need to do and the organizational levers that they need to focus on.

I am now working to ensure that my next report will provide a further update on the recommendations that were addressed in my first report, but will also contain the remainder of the recommendations on topics such as recruitment, promotions, complaints and grievances, and the policy framework surrounding this area.

I also plan to review the data being used, and the implementation of the provisions of the Declaration of Victims Rights, which came into force in June 2022.

I thank you for this opportunity. I look forward to your questions.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Ms. Therrien.

I should have read this note about the audio. This room is equipped with a powerful audio system, and feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to the microphone. We therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on.

We're all guilty of this, and I don't want to make it any more difficult for the interpreters than it already is.

With that, we're going to cut the six-minute round to four minutes.

Mrs. Kramp-Neuman, you have four minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you.

Thank you for being here, Ms. Therrien. I'd like to thank you for all the work you have been doing, in the short amount of time you've been tasked to do it in.

Who do you report to?

4:15 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

I report to the minister, because I provide her advice. Every month, I provide her with a report. This report, the public one, goes to her.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Do you also report to Parliament, to cabinet, or is it just the minister?

4:15 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

It's just the minister.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

How often are you in contact with the minister?

4:15 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

On average, I have contact once a month.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

At any point during its development, apart from the minister, whom you've mentioned you directly report to, has any other minister, or any other staff from any other minister's office, including the PMO, formally or informally been in contact with you via phone, in person or email to discuss any of the content?

4:20 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Further, you've noted in your report that the agenda is instead being driven by availability of resources and capacity issues.

Does the CAF have the capability required to implement all of the recommendations?

4:20 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

I believe they have the capability. I would suggest that currently they have the will, but I do believe that they have to prioritize.

The fact is that there are not unlimited resources, there is not unlimited time and they are dealing with hundreds of recommendations from external sources about culture change, so they have a lot on their plate.

They have to come up with this framework of how they're going to move forward.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Further, the CDS has characterized our retention and recruitment crisis.

Do you believe that progress made to date has had any impact on the recruitment and retention rates of the Canadian Armed Forces?

4:20 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

Apparently the numbers are looking good in terms of new recruits. I know there is a lot of effort going into that because clearly they need warm bodies to be able to conduct their work. There is a lot of emphasis on that aspect of what they're trying to do.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Okay.

Do you feel that the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence have effectively implemented all, or even a majority, of the recommendations made by Madam Arbour?

4:20 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

I can't say that it's all or many—quite a few. The thing is, there are many that will never actually be closed off or completely met because they will be ongoing for a long time.

Can I give you an example?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Certainly.

4:20 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

Recently, it was announced that there is a launch of a program to provide legal assistance to people who have been affected by sexual misconduct. That's the first phase. There are going to be quite a few incremental phases to that, so that's a long-term thing.

Can I say that it's completely done? In theory it is, but it's good to keep that window open.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

When the report was released, Minister Anand immediately accepted the 17 recommendations.

These are people's lives, and people have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. The reports are important, but action is needed.

Would you suggest that those full 17 are implemented, or that you have the full intention for them to be implemented?

4:20 p.m.

External Monitor, As an Individual

Jocelyne Therrien

They're all very close to being implemented, and for those that aren't completed, it's imminent in a lot of cases.