Evidence of meeting #67 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Do you believe that, had the Deschamps report been acted upon back in 2016-17, we wouldn't be in the mess we got into at the end of 2019-20?
External Monitor, As an Individual
You know, as somebody pointed out recently, even if all the recommendations are fully implemented, will that fix everything? We don't know.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Okay.
In your report, you talk about some of the legislative changes required, everything from duty to report.... You also talk about the probationary period for new recruits and, until that happens, making use of the regular enrolment release.
First, do you think there's a due process for those people getting released under those auspices, in order to make sure their jurisprudence is respected? Second, have you recommended to the minister that they bring forward the appropriate legislative or regulatory changes needed to implement all of these recommendations?
External Monitor, As an Individual
I have been asking for the plan for legislative changes for this year and have seen various versions.
On there, for example, recommendation 5 is an important one. There are other ones on there. I've asked about the probation. There is currently a discussion as to when they will seek legislative change on that, because what they're suggesting is that they can go at it from other ways that are less complicated.
In other words, do we absolutely need legislative change to accomplish what the recommendation suggests?
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Would that include recommendation number 5 to remove sexual offences under the Criminal Code and...outside of the National Defence Act?
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
When we look at the referral of sexual offences to the provincial court system, and to municipal and provincial policing agencies.... You talked about how 90-plus cases have been referred over.
Have you been talking to the provincial ministers or policing associations to see whether or not they have the court and police resources to take on these extra cases from National Defence?
External Monitor, As an Individual
I have not had direct conversations with those groups, no.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Do you think that's important to have, in order to ensure we have the capacity to deal with [Inaudible—Editor] National Defence?
External Monitor, As an Individual
The consultation paper.... They are expecting the results in June. They've canvassed all those people you've talked about. That's part of the issue—the resourcing. That comes in the next little while, and it will be the starting point of—
Conservative
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for your testimony. I appreciate what you have to say, the report you produced and, more importantly, the notion of trying to change the culture—trying to be more effective and have proper treatment.
I want to build on some of the questions that were just asked.
In section I on prevention, you highlight the “strong commitment...to operationalize CAF ethics and values with regard to creating a safe and inclusive workplace and inculcating those values into the next generation of military personnel.” You also say, “This will be instrumental in the shift towards a safer workplace.”
Can you elaborate on how these good-faith efforts among senior leadership and the continuation of a productive relationship with departmental officials will support the implementation of your report recommendations? What parts are DND and CAF doing well, and what can the defence team learn from this?
External Monitor, As an Individual
Hopefully, this answers your question.
As I stated in the report, there's a lot of activity. Everybody has been tasked with some of the recommendations from the Arbour report and the Fish report released the year prior. There's also the minister's panel on systemic racism and the Heyder Beattie class action. A lot of recommendations have come out of that. There's a lot of activity, consultation and movement, but it needs to be thought through so that you have a coherent approach going ahead. In the end, we could say, “Yes, those 10 recommendations are done”, but did they really do what they were supposed to?
They have to think it through—how to prioritize and coordinate better.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
In her report, Madam Arbour saw “the external monitoring playing a key role in holding the relevant stakeholders to account, including senior Defence Team leadership.”
In your role, and certainly previously as a member of the Auditor General's office, you should be able to help ensure that team leadership then follows through on those meaningful and lasting cultural changes in the armed forces.
Can you do that? Are you part of that?
External Monitor, As an Individual
They know this report is coming. Even in December, when there was an update to Parliament and Madam Arbour and the minister were present and so on, they were already talking about the fact that at the end of April the external monitor produces that report that says “yea” or “nay”. As well, they know that another one is coming up in another five months. That makes a difference.
It's monitoring. It really is monitoring, and I believe it's making a difference that way. Will it forever? Maybe not. Maybe the novelty will wear off after a while.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
I'm encouraged by the steps the minister is taking. Obviously, she's been a huge asset for consumer protection with a number of measures in her past life.
Certainly on this issue, she's very clear as to what she would like to see happen. Are you encouraged that there is leadership coming from the top and that it will resonate through?
External Monitor, As an Individual
There is definitely leadership from the top and a sincere willingness, but the devil is in the details. That's what we're working on through these recommendations, doing the thing that is expected to really change things.
There are organizational levers that are very important when you want to change culture. Are they focusing on those? Yes, because they're focusing on the recommendations, but some of those have to happen sooner rather than later.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Sousa.
Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for two minutes.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Therrien, I'd like to come back to something you said.
You said you'd heard that some of the recommendations weren't the most appropriate and that they didn't help with transferring cases to civilian courts, for one thing. You talked about the fact that it is no longer the military police handling the files, but the civilian police.
Having conducted your study, do you think it makes sense to analyze how effective the recommendations are in addition to how they're being implemented? If we go all in with a measure that turns out to be harmful, that doesn't help anyone.
Is that part of your thought process and your analysis?
External Monitor, As an Individual
Personally, I'm always going to ask, “How do you know you did what you were asked to do?” It's one thing to carry out a recommendation to the letter, but was that really what was expected? I imagine the answers will vary.
With respect to transfers, we'll have to wait until some of them have happened before we can understand if it's being done reasonably well.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Should the effectiveness of these measures be analyzed periodically? Once we know they've been implemented properly, will someone be checking to make sure they're still effective?
External Monitor, As an Individual
That should be part of good management practices in any department. You have to understand what's going to be used to clearly understand if an approach is the right one. It's important to ask if the understanding of the situation is correct and what information is going to be used. That should certainly be analyzed on a regular basis.