Evidence of meeting #67 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Shelby Kramp-Neuman Conservative Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Do you believe a change of minister or political will would make it possible to implement the recommendations, finally?
External Monitor, As an Individual
I have to say that the minister is very committed to this. I can't see that she could be any more committed or what it would change.
The department takes a certain amount of time to complete the tasks that are required.
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much for being here and for taking on this job. You used the term “learning curve”, and you threw yourself into the job. I remember when I was first elected as a member of Parliament, when I was asked, I said that it is like drinking from a fire hose. I did the same thing; I threw myself right into the job.
Your report focuses on three major themes: prevention, support to affected persons, and input and oversight.
I know you had only five minutes at the start, but can you elaborate a bit and inform the committee about the progress made on all three of these themes?
External Monitor, As an Individual
As pointed out in the report, I believe there has been a lot of activity. I chose those themes because, for me, they were logical.
If you can prevent these instances from happening in the first place, as opposed to dealing with them after the fact, that's always a good thing. I list a few items in there that I believe fall into that prevention category.
Support to victims is crucial, clearly, and that has come a long way. The SMSRC, the centre that is there to support victims, has really expanded its services. I hope that people out there know that it exists. That's sometimes the issue.
In terms of external input and oversight, that was one of the themes of Madam Arbour, and I believe she is right. There needs to be a lot of external input into how the military does things.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
In the conclusion part of your report, you emphasize the need for a strategic plan to coordinate the implementation of the recommendations.
Can you tell me how you feel that's going, and whether you feel you have the support for your work?
External Monitor, As an Individual
I had been talking about the need for a strategic framework for about a month before the report was made public. It was becoming, obviously, more and more clear to me that, without that, there was going to be a lot of activity, but it was not necessarily going to be focused on the recommendations that are the most critical.
I've been told that now they are working on such a framework. There's a lot of support for it, actually.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
From all you've seen so far, do you feel that your work is going to be taken seriously by the government and by the Minister of National Defence?
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
What about work that was done before you were named in the fall of 2022? When you came into the position and you were thrown into that learning curve, did you see that things were set up to be taken seriously by government and by the minister as well?
External Monitor, As an Individual
Yes. They had already set up the division within the armed forces. It's the umbrella that is now responsible for culture and professional conduct. That's from 2021.
They also, later that year or early the next year, established what's called the ECRIC, which is the committee that is set up to ensure the implementation of external reports.
Those are two things.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
That's all I have.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Fisher.
Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for four minutes.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
Thank you for being with us today, Ms. Therrien, and thank you for the work you do.
Some recommendations have been out there for a while, such as transferring files to civil authorities.
When recommendations are implemented, sometimes it turns out that changes have to be made over time. Would you please comment on that?
For those files that have been transferred to civilian authorities, have any issues come up over time that would prompt you to take another look at the recommendations? For example, some of the more complex cases, such as when members of the military are stationed in one place at the time the misconduct occurred, but now live in another place. It isn't always clear which civilian authority should deal with it.
Is that part of what your team is considering?
External Monitor, As an Individual
It's not my job to question the purpose of the recommendations. Still, people do talk about various obstacles. Some people wonder if this is really what's best for victims of sexual misconduct.
Recently, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces began talking to all their provincial and territorial partners about how best to follow the process.
Also, from what I understand, these discussions will be useful in that they will make it possible to look at cases where files have already been transferred and to learn from them.
I think that is how we'll be able to see what's working and what's not. Sometimes, one of the two people involved in the case lives in another province. Let's just say that doesn't work as easily in reality as it does on paper.
I think these consultations will help us learn things like that.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
If it becomes clear along the way that there are obstacles preventing some of the recommendations from being implemented as written, what would be the process for revising those recommendations, if necessary?
Would Ms. Arbour be involved? Has that already been considered, or is the way forward unclear?
External Monitor, As an Individual
We're taking one step at a time. We'll see how things unfold. That was a recommendation that was accepted. For the time being, we're moving forward. However, it's important to see if course corrections are necessary along the way.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
This matters to me because there's a military college in the riding I represent.
I'd like to hear your comments about the study that should be done on the proposal to take military training out of colleges. Where are you on that study, and what criteria should be part of it?
One criterion that comes to mind is a comparative analysis of the two colleges because people often say that they're very different, so there may be some lessons to glean there rather than throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.
External Monitor, As an Individual
As far as I know, that significant difference between the two colleges will be scrutinized. I've visited both of them, actually.
When I visited the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston in March, college representatives had just visited the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean to find out what kinds of cases were being used as good examples for training.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Is any thought being given to other criteria that should be scrutinized to determine what should be done about military colleges? I'd like your comments on that. How is that going to be done?
External Monitor, As an Individual
I don't have that information at the moment. However, the criteria will be released very soon.
Liberal
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you so much for being here today.
To build off a past question, you said that you report directly to the minister. One of the key findings was that externality to investigate such things. The ombudsman for defence himself has said that he must be able to report outside of the minister.
Do you truly feel that you can be external when you only report to the minister?
External Monitor, As an Individual
I actually do, because even though we discuss things, she's made it abundantly clear that I am to do what I am to do on my own. I have never felt any constraint whatsoever, truly.
What I say in my reports to her on a monthly basis are my thoughts, and my thoughts only. What I said in here is what I had to say.
