National Defence Committee on Sept. 28th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It looks like we're going to put you to work again.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I know I'm not a permanent member anymore, but I, too, agree that this is an important study. We travelled all over Canada and went to MFRCs all over Canada at all of the bases, and housing was key.

I would like to potentially add a friendly amendment, if that's at all possible, and I hope it's accepted, because—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Friendly or otherwise, you're entitled to move it.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Sure.

I think it's important to talk about housing, but in addition to housing, one of the absolutely critical issues that we have to deal with is child care. As the former chair of Seamless Canada, of the two biggest issues that were identified and we dealt with back in the spring—and we're going to be coming back in December with potential solutions—one of them was, of course, child care. It is a massive problem. When folks are posted, they can't find a home and they cannot find proper child care. They go to the bottom of the list if they're posted in a different community.

I wonder if the member would be willing to expand on this study slightly to try to tackle both of those issues, given how connected they are in terms of when this is an issue for members of the armed forces.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Do you have the amendment in writing?

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I just simply would like to add, like I said, a study on housing and child care issues around the Canadian Armed Forces. I don't have the language of Mr. Bezan's motion in front of me, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Before I go to Mr. Bezan, Mr. Fisher, do you have something?

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I have an amended text here for James's motion if you want me to read it into the record to see how it changes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, please.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It states, “That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study on the lack of housing availability on or near bases for Canadian Armed Forces members and their families and the challenges facing members and their families when they are required to move across the country, including access to child care, spousal employment, education and health care.”

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

There is an amendment on the floor. Do you want to respond to the—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I know there's some connectivity here. There are some things that the military has direct access to and control of, such as the Canadian Forces housing authority. I think that makes it so that we need to first look at the housing issue.

Then I think the issues around opportunities for families—including child care, access to family doctors, spousal employment opportunities—and other issues around those frequent moves and how they impact military families should be a separate study.

I think that this one has to be very focused on the current state of the Canadian Armed Forces' housing stock. We have heard the horror stories of the PMQs, the barracks and on-base housing being in very dilapidated conditions and even rodent-infested in cases. There are issues like frozen water pipes, a lack of insulation, one-pane windows and things of that nature. We also know that often they are moved into hot and cold housing markets, depending on where they're stationed across the country, and there are impacts to those moves.

We also have the post living differential changes that have also impacted how people decide to live together and how they afford their housing. Then you also go into the markets where it is just way too expensive to live, places like Victoria, Toronto and elsewhere. People are actually living in their vehicles or campers all year, because they can't afford an apartment, never mind buy a home.

Knowing that's impacting those who are currently serving, I think that is a study in itself. I have no problem with taking on a secondary study, following the housing study, to look at things like child care, family doctors, and spousal opportunities in employment and career advancement as a separate issue, but I don't think we should cross the wires on the housing study.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Mathyssen is up next, and then it'll be Mr. Fisher.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I appreciate that this is being brought forward again. Certainly, we spoke before about working together and about potential changes, so I thought we would have an opportunity to work those changes in together.

However, I would like very much to ensure that there is a conversation about post living differential changes and how those have benefited some and negatively impacted others. I would like for us to also take into consideration the fact that military housing repairs are such a big question within that as well.

I don't have the exact language, but I would really like to ensure some language on inviting the leadership of the CF real property operations group, as well as the Canadian Forces housing authority, so that we can ensure that we hear from them as part of that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Out of respect, that's absolutely who we would want to invite.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Whenever I think of military serving members, I always want to include their families. I think it's important to include families as it pertains to child care, spousal employment, education and health care. It's a good amendment to James's motion. We see the importance in the study, and I think we can talk about these things all at the same time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. May.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you.

I don't fundamentally disagree at all with what Mr. Bezan has said, but we've all had experience on bases. I think, in our experience, all of these issues are coming from the same root cause. I think this is why we need to look at this. If we're going to start to do this piecemeal, we're not going to solve the real problem.

The real problem comes from the challenges that CAF members are facing when they are posted. That should be the title of the study. Housing, of course, is a big chunk of that, but so are these other things. I recognize that housing is front of mind for all Canadians and not just CAF members, but it's the root cause that we should be focusing on—namely, the posting itself and the issues that it causes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Fisher, did you want to say something?

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I just want to know if we can let our amazing witnesses go. They've been sitting here for a couple of hours.

I've sat on this committee for a long time. James is very famous for putting a motion on the floor four minutes before the meeting ends, and he smiles as he—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's because I don't want to take time away from the witnesses. I'm being considerate.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Anyway, I would request, respectfully, that if we could ask our folks to—

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I also move that we adjourn.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

If we move to adjourn, there's no debate.